I hate to brag......but
Civic1200 Discussion Board: : I hate to brag......but
My Gawd! If you can't have a little fun bench racing, what good is it!! Anyone that knows me realizes I like to stir it up. My goal wasn't to divide people just express a little individuality & stand up for the old guys, HA!
I figure no harm - no foul, I disagreed with SI and Jacob on this issue but Jacob was a help in my air dam project (still not finished). I guess the reason I don't take it personally is a few years back (like 15 years ago) I was reading all the car mags and belived it all. I thought I knew more that my teachers, didn't do so hot in classes 
. Then I acually started listening... keeping my mouth closed and my mind open. Crud I progressed allot faster that way. Upon graduating and taking the ASE cerification test, I got an award from ASE for the top composite score in the nation...the moral is most of that never would have happened if I wasn't willing to be open to new ideas contrary to what I thought, but also to try and reason out why things worked and why others didn't. Another mentor was engine builder Bill Jones in Utah, one of the things I remember him saying was "I've beat people with the sh*t they threw away because I knew how to make it work together" Something to think about anyway. Oh ps he must have been one of those "drunk monkeys" cause he built allot of cup engines
Congratulations on a great rare find!!
You know.........I just wanted to share my find with you guys, but some of you are dick heads and just have to make comments. I never expected that from this board. Everyone has their own opinions and we all should respect each others. If you guys want to run FI, then I am all for it. I just choose to run the dual carbs.
like Don said........FI and carbs have their place.
I've tuned many a carb, yeah, real difficult there 1300dx. Not my bit, this is just a big battle of opinions and obviously we've all got a lot of them.
Jacob, I was the 1st tech at my Honda dealership to be certified in PGM-FI back in '84 so I DO know FI! I have worked at Honda & Acura shops & dealerships for 23 years and also know my way around the 3bbl Keihins. My point being, I'm keeping my old school car old school. Half the fun of these old cars is their uniqueness and carbs just set them further apart from the newer injected cars. If you can't figure out how to tune a carb, then by all means go the easy route.
BTW- only drunk monkeys pull their choke in the mornings!!!
Yeah, I was figured that it didn't mention each individual car, but what modifications are allowed for each class. My Caprice is going to be relatively stock, I'm planning on swapping out the 267 for a mild 350. Nothing too wild, and probably could pass for stock if it wasn't given a real close inspection (same phisical dimensions to the block and heads, same color as stock, aluminum intake was stock on the 305's of the day, A/C and emissions equipment mostly remain). The car is going to be dual purpose, but will be hampered for now by the strength of the 3-speed auto that's in there. I'm looking to swap in either a TH700-R4 or there's also a company out there that will have a kit to install a T56 6-speed into these cars in the fall. Either one will hold up better behind the 350. Looks like it's gonna be bracket racing or grudge racing for me. Same thing when my Chevelle is finally done. That's not going to be an all-out race car either, but should be fun for a night at the drag strip every once in a while.
NHRA doesn't list individual cars in the rule book like SCCA. Nhra's Rule book has rules in it, car classifications can be ordered from NHRA. Bracket racing is boring but its the simplest class to fit in. Stock eliminator is a step up they run on indexes accoring to the car class. Belive me "stock eliminator" cars aren't that stock, most competive cars are pretty much unstreetable. So if its a dual purpose car start in the brackets or run the friday night grudge races. Grudge races are just the same as street racing only legal, lots of fun.
I'm going to have to agree with Don on this one, NASCAR engines are quite a bit advanced from the engines from the 50's, even if the design looks similar on paper. It's the manifold and head design, along with advances in the materials, that the true performance gains are realized. It's not too easy to make a smaller engine that can turn 8000 rpm for any length of time, much less the longer stroke ones that develop some serious piston speeds. Don, I'd basically want to know what class my Caprice would be able to compete in once done. I'd guess the rules would be way too big to post here, but would you be able to point me in the right direction to where I could get one myself?
Also, the basic layout dates to well before 1955... Chevy's first OHV pushrod V-8 came out in 1917, but only lasted for two years. I think it was the lack of materials technology and expensive machining processes that did it in.
"Please don't compare this to Nascar, a drunk monkey could make power from a pushrod V8... I know, I know, every tenth of a pound, tenth of a HP counts, restrictor plate, blah, blah blah, bottom line.. big engine-no technology... Same basic design as was introduced in 1955."
Nascars non restrictor engines make around 2 hp per CI, run over 8000 RPM for hrs and hrs. They are real race engines...The fact that they basic design was almost antique makes it even cooler
Jon - I have a NHRA rule book what do you want to know?
Don, point kind of well taken. If we're talking about making power with carb's, let's be honest and admit that the stock one's going out the window, just like the stock FI should go out the window if you're wanting to modify factory specifications.
Please don't compare this to Nascar, a drunk monkey could make power from a pushrod V8... I know, I know, every tenth of a pound, tenth of a HP counts, restrictor plate, blah, blah blah, bottom line.. big engine-no technology... Same basic design as was introduced in 1955.
1300dx, don't call us FI guys stupid 'cause we'd rather not turn a screw (that's pretty hard to figure out ), just because you won't take the time to learn FI.
Back to the post, Congrats Bryan, I had intended on doing dual sidedrafts until I got more info on FI.... Have to admit, Velocity stacks look sweet... and serve a purpose.
Don, I didn't mean to make a blanket statement that EFI wasn't allowed in all classes, but in some. I saw one top fuel drag racer (Dean Skuza, dunno if I spelled that right) explaining about how they can't use computer controls on the race engines for other than data collection. I figured he races them, he should know. That does not mean that NHRA doesn't allow computers at all, but just in particular classes. I even think that they do have some classes where EFI is required, but I can't recall exactly where I heard that. I'll try and do some more research when I get home tonight, I'm just going off what I can remember off the top of my head at the moment. Is there anyone out there with an NHRA rule book?
Jon - Where are you getting your info?
There are NHRA cars that use electronic fuel injection but they are few and far between and your right most dont use the stock computer because its easier to go with the $$$ laptop system for tuning
Mecanical Fuel injection systems are even more basic than a carburetor, the The system I had has only one circuit, no idle circuit even. These systems work a WOT well but aren't that drivable
.
Nascar does require carbs but if they were so "obsolete, time consuming, never run right but they dont know it" they would change the rules just like the did for other items like Ford bodies = Two door Taurus.
Drag race Mecanical Fuel injection systems are even more basic than a carburetor. The the system I had has only one circuit, no idle circuit even. These systems work a WOT well but aren't that drivable. The OEM mechanical systems are more complex.
Don, I thought that NASCAR and many NHRA classes kept with carbs because of the rules not allowing computers for other than data collection. I think that there's a few people in NHRA that do run fuel injection, but not like the newer EFI systems. I think they're mechanical fuel injection, kinda like what was on the '57 Corvette and Bel-Air.
On my trip to Estes Park for the Hondapalooza I went from 1200 ft. above sea level to 8000-12000 ft. My Civic ran like crap until I realized it was too rich due to the thin air -DUH. I was able to tweak the Weber without any tools. If I had FI I wouldn't even noticed the altitude change. I am old school and farting around with carbs is FUN! If you are young & stupid I can see how it would be frustrating. Maybe you should play with newer cars, HA!!
"I'm sure carb's have their place.. personally it's right next to the stock exhaust in the scrap heap... just my $.02." "Lots of people use carb's yeah, they don't usually run right and they're perfectly happy with them."
Crud Maybe Nascar and NHRA should all start coming to read this board. After all they waste thousands of dollars every year trying to get the last 10th out of their cars (some classes in NHRA can use either FI or carbs and many choose carbs). All the HP They would gain and time they would save. If you think carbs are hard to tune, try FI... I have a 95 Vette Motor and 6 speed in a 72 El Camino right now in the shop. The owner dropped in a cam and some dart heads, it wont get out of its own way - won't idle... all Because the map sensor senses low manifold vacuum, injector poundages have to be bumped up to support the application Etc.... Howell burns the chips for my customers but it still takes some experimentation (Usualy three to four chips with slightly different programing, depending of the readings of the test equipment)just like carbs do once the original application is changed. There are laptop tunable systems and they are the easiest to get right, but none of the hot cars that leave my shop are easy on the enviroment, reguardless if there carbed or FI. WOT requires a richer mixture to keep from melting parts. Also like someone mentioned items like air injection and converters have as much or more to do with what comes out the tail pipe, than if its carbed or FI.
Before this all blew up Bryan posted his great find and SI posted that carbs suck. Well hopefully y'all now understand that Carbs work very well and reliably in thier intended use, much the same could be said for fuel injection. Both have certain advantages and dis-advantages. Nether one "Sucks".
Oh and PS Most sidedraft carbs like Webers and Mikunis dont have “Chokes”
Correct me if I'm wrong or completely off-base here, but I always thought that carburetors were quite good if tuned correctly, but if you change the operating conditions of the vehicle then the carb's tuning is a little off. With a fuel injected engine, adjustments can be made on the fly by the computer to compensate for temperature and air pressure differences. That's why, at least on stock Civics (and other cars too, I'm sure) the air cleaner has the heat riser pipe to mix warmer air and cooler outside air so the air that goes through the carb stays a constant temperature no matter what the outside air temperature (100F, if I recall correctly) With Fuel injection, you don't have to try to keep the same intake temperature, the engine's computer can adjust the timing and amount of fuel depending on atmospheric temperature and pressure. There won't be any problems with needing to change jets in the carburetor when changing altitude or for different seasons to maintain an almost exact mixture. I don't think that the increase in fuel economy or power comes from the fuel injection itself, but rather from the computer controls that allow the engines to run at thier peak almost 100% of the time, if the engineers do their job correctly. If there was a way to hook up a MAF sensor, throttle position sensor, O2 sensor and some sort of variable jet to a computer, you can probably acheive almost the same power and economy from a carburetor as a throttle body injected motor. Multi-port fuel injection will get a bit more economy and power from being able to squirt the fuel directly towards the intake valve of the engine, allowing for better fuel atomization and distribution than a carburetor or throttle-body injected motor ever can. As for reliability, I can't say that there would be a good comparison there, the systems are seperated by so much in design and engineering resources, such as computer analysis and advances in materials, that the comparison wouldn't be fair. Also, from an emissions standpoint, I bet most of the reduction in emissions in the newer cars can be attributed to the emissions equipment, such as a catalytic converter. I'm sure that there's a good bit of emissions reduced form the ability to change fuel/air mixtures while driving, but there's carburetors that can do that too. It all comes down to fuel injection is a better system, other than the cost, computer controls adding somewhat to the complexity, and the availibility of retrofit parts. If it's worth it to you, then go with fuel injection. If you want to stick with a carburetor, then don't go fuel injection. Now, I'm not a mechanic, I don't design cars for a living (I wish I did), but I do work on them as a hobby and I am a mechanical engineer, so I do hope I know somewhat what I'm talking about. But, if I am way off base on something here, please feel free to correct me.
There's a lot of people who make their living repairing carb'd vehicles as well, vehicles require maintenance.
That's fine if it's for emissions, so a new Vette gets good as mileage and makes over 400hp... dang, better throw a carb on that. My brother's Firehawk made 350hp, ran the 1/4 in the 12's (12.99, but 12's none-the-less) and got 32mpg (@75-85mph) going to Vegas, show me a carb'd engine that'll do that?
Also, your COMPETITION car is capable of being equally as fast, if not faster if FI'd, but will cost you less money at the pump.... I'm sure carb's have their place.. personally it's right next to the stock exhaust in the scrap heap... just my $.02.
Lots of people use carb's yeah, they don't usually run right and they're perfectly happy with them, that's fine. I'd rather do my little bit for the env't, save money at the pump, not have to pull a choke in the morning, and probably make more power.... to each his own.
carbs= no restrictions....blow the motor, to do this w/ a fuel injected car you have to take away the rev limiter, and thats just pointless
FI is too easy! Carbs are more fun to play with and isn't that why we have old cars? I have FI in my new cars and don't have to F--- with it but my Civic is a toy and I want to keep in touch with the old arts (except points!lol). The injected vs. carb argument is like manual vs. automatic, to each his own! Do you want to program computers or turn a screwdriver??
How many racing engines are equiped with FI? The only ones I know of are either supercharged, or turbocharged. Now I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule, but I am talking about FAST cars........1800-2200hp blown or nitrous cars. Long story short......carbs still have their place. Like Don said, the reason why cars have FI these days is because it is more efficient than carbs, staying in tune longer and such.
If the manufacturers could, they still would use carbs. Manufacturing costs would go down considerably and they would make more money. Thanks Uncle Sam for that one. 
The reason carbs aren't used in production any more is emissions. If you read I said "COMPETITION", Jacob
Bryan Is building a Hot Rod Civic not a grandma car. I said nothing about relablity or I&M but If you want you can come by and see how reliable late model fuel injected vehicles are... I make my living fixing them
Sorry about the blanket statement but it is true. Jacob is 100% right there is a reason there not using carbs in production. In an addition small engines are moving over to fuel injection aswell. The efficiency and reliability of fuel injection could only be matched by people that sit around all day and piss around with their carbs! I on the other hand I have other things to do! I find alot of people dislike fuel injection because they have a lack of knowledge, it isn't that complicated. Don I know your a smart man, but you have to agree for the everyday person you can't beat fuel injection.
I'm not ignorant nor jealous! I fully understand the circuits and priciples used in carburation, and my car could kick the crap out of 98% of the carbed civics out there! Anyway these are my thoughts and my opinons take them as you will.
Later choke pullers!! lol
No, to think that a carb is capable of the same sort of reliability and drivability of fuel injection is ignorant. Carb's are outdated and do not provide the efficiency and reliability of fuel injection. An argument for Carb's could only be made if there was some auto manufacturer that still offered carb's on a production vehicle... they don't.... not a coincidence.
SI... allot of testing has been done on competition engines with both FI and carbs. When the intakes are the same shape and size the engine doesn't really care one way or the other as long as the fuel gets into the cylinder in the proper amount and condition. BG carburetors actually put injectors behind a conventional carb booster and marketed it to the V-8 guys because the booster atomizes the fuel better than a injector alone. To make a blanket statement like that is ignorant or maybe jealous?
Yes, air & fuel. Very good! One of the basics of automotive theory.
Carbs SUCK!
I have some DHLB's and then these. I will run both and see first before I decide what to do with them. they sure are pretty. I will post some pics soon.
Bryan, if you should decide you don't want those later down the road, I would buy them from you for more than you paid. I would love to have a back up set.You can email me if that day comes at bakerbeach8754@yahoo.com
hahaha i beaat you i bought some quad individual tb's 48mm for 60 shipped
I have those same carbs, post some pics.
I think I just got a smokin' deal on ebay. I bought an NOS set of Mikuni/Solex 36 carbs with chrome velocity stacks for $118 shipped, new and never been bolted on.