Hi again, Roger,

Weighing procedures is where SCCA Solo differs from SCCA Club Racing - Club Racing usually weighs with driver, but Solo does not, unless it specifies "with driver." The weight for solo is car only in it's "as competed" condition, which includes fuel, coolant, etc. When you've finished your runs, the car without driver should be at or above the listed weight. Some of the modified classes and karts weigh with driver.

Section 15.2.G (page 108) allows you to re-configure your hood. I know it only says hinges may be removed, but you can remove the original hinges and install rear hinges as an alternate attachment device.

Later,
- Doug

Doug Gill
SCCA Solo Technical Manager
1-800-770-2055
785-232-7215 fax
dgill@scca.com
solotech@scca.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Edens [mailto:rogeredens@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 1:56 PM
To: Doug Gill
Subject: RE: DP Auto-Xer


Doug,

A credible source told me that Auto-X DP weights include the driver. My inspection of the rules indicates that the weight only counts the car. Secondarily, does the listed weight include fuel, coolant, etc?

My car hood opens to the front and I would like it to open to the back. I see no allowance for this modification. I assume it is not allowed.

If you could please clarify these items I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Roger

By Zippy (Zippy) (67.106.175.3) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 07:06 am:

I just wanted to say that I know Jared did not do this on purpose. He did not deliberately sell me faulty headers. I see that I may have implied otherwise in an earlier post and would like to retract that.

By jms (66.242.1.63) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 05:58 pm:

Dang, I had no idea bro, never tried to mount them. I got them Ken Baker out of FL with the 73, he found a racer and parted it out. I was keeping them as spares but when you said you needed some, was trying to help out.

I would use a sawz-all, grinder, cutoff wheel, or plasma cutter, cut off the header at the flange and just rotate it. It surely looks like it will clear the oil pan and rotate, wont it? If you notice it looks like it had A LOT of space in between the header and oil filter, my S&S ones are much closer, so it has room to be rotated. And after comparing it to the S&S headers the flanges look the same.

I didnt know the primaries had to be in a certain order either??

By Bryan (66.32.145.230) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 05:01 pm:

The tubes are DEFINATELY NOT in the correct order or location to be equal length. It is also good to have a "circular" flow pattern. Those are not like that. The welds look kind of lumpy where the tubes meet the flange. We usually don't see welds that much in that location, so they may be a home made set.

It would be hard to repair them to work Roger. That's really a bummer.

By Ted (63.224.195.169) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 09:43 am:

That header looks like the welder lined things up wrong, and didn't even have a 1200 available to check the work. Shouldn't the primaries from piston 1 and 2 run above and below each other. And the same goes for primary 3 and 4? If only you could cut off the flange, grind down the weld, and rotate the tubes over so it's clear of the crossmember, and weld things back up. That's what I would do.

By Zippy (Zippy) (67.106.175.3) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 08:39 am:

In my fantasy life I have considered a header with that design. It would be fun except for trying to get the primaries all the same length. If my "new" and old headers have the same size primaries I may try to cut-and-paste. Unless somebody has a great idea, I'm afraid these headers are doomed to the stock pile.

By Zippy (Zippy) (67.106.175.3) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 08:32 am:

So sad :-{

By Don (199.2.139.229) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 08:23 am:

I know why that header was sold too! It would be easier to fab a header than to engineer a new crossmember that works. Seriously, header fabrication is much easier than cutting off a front end so it should not be a problem for you.
I heard of a 1200 race car that snaked the header sideways over the trans and the back into the tunnel if you dont want to bang your header again.

By Zippy (Zippy) (67.106.175.3) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 07:08 am:

Here's the pics of the problem.

By Don (199.2.139.232) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 01:06 pm:

The Scca minumum weight is with driver.. so your pretty close?
The cutting with the AT header is minimal. Install your header then hold up the crossmember, if you have to take out over a 1/2" then its somebodies homemade design.

By Zippy (Zippy) (67.106.175.3) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 11:16 am:

Thank you for your reasonable, if caustic advice. I may not be a real race car driver but I am not a newbie. I’m not world champion but on good days I can keep up with the Z-06s in our club (a couple of these guys regularly attend nationals). I’m not the world’s best driver but none of my co-drivers, some rather respectable, have beaten me yet. I am reasonably capable of running my own project but always like to hear constructive ideas from others.
· I have a descent pair of camber plates, and my front end design includes the new improved plates I will require as part of the track expansion.
· I have a rear sway bar, but your advice about the adjustable bar is sound.
· My springs and Carrera coil-overs modified to accept first-gen front Koni Reds on all four corners are a pretty good set up.
· I have had an excellent set of Goodyear cantilever r115 slicks. Yeah, I need a new set but when they wear out I’ll be right here again.
· The car weighs 1340 wet, 160 pounds below weight, adding a few pounds is necessary before I hit the scales in Kansas. This will be done through chassis stiffening roll cage installation.
· The motor needs a hot short-block and a valve train and after I win the lottery I’ll work on that. My intake, cam, cam gear (big difference), shaved head, and exhaust have been working well together.
· I’d like more power, but more power won’t make me a better driver. Learning to drive a better, tighter car will make me a better driver. Working with lower power will help me be smooth. A fast car will let me suck without knowing it. Now when I screw up a corner the consequences are very clear, with power you can suck and still be fast enough not to know it. When I get more power I will be a better driver. Additionally, torch time is cheap. New motors are expensive.
· Tuning, there is not that much I can tune on my current setup. I’ve played with alignment settings and have a comfortable location. Active but not too twitchy. Minimal corner entry understeer with a touch of mid and late oversteer.
· We have a $15K Prepared Acura in our club. He can’t touch me and he has all the mods. I know what you are talking about and I’m not that. Nobody has heard me complaining about my car, when I complain it is about my driving. One of my favorite things is when I beat that rich jackass trailering his street prepared 2001 Porsche Carrera behind his Ford Exhibition and watching him slam his door and talk about what a piece of crap his car is.
· I suddenly became poor because my wife is pregnant and has quit work. Now I just make the bills. Fun money has gone away. Next racing season it may be all I can do to pay the entry fees.
· Bushings, yeah, but at about $300 they will have to wait a little bit and I am evaluating alternatives.
· Headers, I’m with you, but I figure if I can make them work I won’t make a stink. I don’t want to make a stink but now I think I know why they were for sale. :-( There are several things I like about them. They end straight in line with the exhaust tunnel, they sit up real high, and they have a nice shape.

Now, please help me with my goals, your advice is valued. Any constructive ideas that continue to bring me forward on this path are appreciated.
1) A/T Headers: Does anybody have a pic or know how much they cut out of the front cross member to use them?
2) Assuming I keep these headers, (I’d like to make them work instead of make a stink) where can I put a new engine mount and what might it be made of?

By Keil Shepherd (Medicineman) (81.131.205.234) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 03:20 am:

Hi Zippy

I agree with Don.

When I removed the crossmember on my stock '78 EB3 Hondamatic I had to support the whole lot on a trolly jack (I was removing the oil pan in case you were wondering!) adjacent to where the original support had been. Even though it was a professional 2-ton jack the engine still sagged down and tilted slightly. Result: the crossmember was a bitch to re-fit! I reckon, on a stock Civic at least, it's way too crucial to be taken out of the car.

By Don (199.2.139.176) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:08 pm:

What?? If you have a header that goes in place of the cross member then get another header. I have heard that the A/T header required a cut out in the member, but no properly designed header will require you to remove the complete cross member. You don't need to reinforce the sub frame unless there is rust issues; it is strong from Honda. Spend all that energy on some camber plates and maybe an adjustable rear swaybar.
Some people try and "reinvent the wheel" Allot of the hard stuff you mentioned wont make a split second difference on the autocross course. Get a solid engine in there, Get some real springs and shocks,redo the bushings, make it light, and spend any extra on a fresh set of rubber for next season. In most cars the nut behind the wheel (driver) and the sorting and fine tuning of the car is were the big gains are found. It reminds me of a guy this season that drives a late civic at the autocross course. He would tell every one he was slow because he couldn't afford new tires or any mods to his car. He finally got the items he thought would make him a winner via credit card and guess what he is even slower.

By Zippy (Zippy) (67.106.175.3) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 07:50 am:

OK, I have a plan, and I'm very excited. I'm posting to tell you about it but mostly I have a question. After you clear the junk out of the way and support the tranny, the entire front suspension can be removed, as a single unit, by removing just 13 bolts, 4 from the front cross member, 4 from the steering rack, 2 from the tranny mount, one from the top of each strut and one from the steering u-joint. This leaves you with a sub-frame to which the suspension components attach. My goal is to reinforce this removable sub-frame in order to tighten the chassis and improve handling. Seems easy enough but I have to work my way around things like the motor, the cars sheet metal, and stuff. I also plan to reinforce the unibody in front of the fire-wall to hold the four locations where the sub-frame attaches to the car. After this is done I will spread my track using Adrians strategy with the EN half-shafts.

Now, here's my question. The headers I just bought pass under the motor where the tranny mount is supposed to go. I'm generally happy about this because now the headers sit up high and hopefully will not get destroyed again. The problem is that the cross member that passes under the motor for the tranny mount and attaches the front cross member to the steering rack has to go. Basically, I have to build a new mount to replace the old tranny mount. Has anybody else had to deal with this problem? I am concerned that if I move the mount I may stress a point that wasn’t meant to be stressed and wind up with a broken…… If I use the current location it would pretty much have to be a solid mount because of space issues. I can do whatever I need to do because I will be welding on the sub-frame. I just don’t know where/what/why/how the new mount should go. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

By Don (199.2.139.166) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 06:12 pm:

Remember I ordered about 600 dollars US of the stuff because every one in the USA wanted the stuff until it came time to come up with $$ and they sent it in a soap box! It riped open and a bunch of the items never made it, then they sent late model civic stuff instead of the 1200 Items. Then.... we found out that Dennis who has a second gen had to sell the ones he bought from me to a 1200 guy because they would not fit his car even though the Notech Dumb a$$es said it would right on the packages. In all I would not do that again but Adrian knows what to look for.

By Anthony Stewart (202.147.80.170) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 03:50 pm:

Don * what greif did you have with Noltec,just wondering as I am the Man who took all his bushings there and they copied them all,so us civic freaks could have them,but they are ver Bankrupt in the service department..

By Zippy (Zippy) (67.106.175.3) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:32 pm:

Thanks for the help guys.
Adrian, could post a picture of your adjustable control arm. Your description inder the thread KNUCKLES was vey interesting. I'd like to know more. Thanks, Roger

By bruce (67.200.12.175) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 05:25 am:

When it decides to stop raining I will get a picture.

By Adrian (Evocivic) (165.228.11.61) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 06:21 pm:

If you really need lots of extra track at the front then the easiest way would be longer control arms, tie rods and driveshafts. If you do the tried and tested 4x100 conversion using EN drive flanges and caliper adapter brackets you can use complete EN driveshafts which are about 50mm longer than EB, rather than just the outer CVs. Then extend the lower control arms and tie rods a similar amount. Using 242mm CRX rotors and CRX/Accord/Prelude etc. calipers you can still use 13in wheels.
You will also need to move the strut top mount out a long way or you'll just have far too much negative camber. You may need to modify the sway bar if the control arms get too long. The radius rods will be fine.
If you ask nicely I can probably find some time to pop into Noltec and get bushes for you (they are only 5 minutes up the road from me) .

By Don (199.2.139.235) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 06:15 pm:

Oh early accord lower control arms are a bolt in and increase the track a bit. The faster ratio the more force required to turn the steering wheel so I would leave the rack as-is unless you want a power steering setup.

By Don (199.2.139.180) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 05:32 pm:

Solid bushings work but they have to be used in the right place. In most places they will just bind up the suspension . I wouldn't do the chop. If it were mine with limited funds then I would order the Poly bushings from White line a beg sombody in Oz to go had pick up the rest from NOTEC () And pay them for thier time. Other wise you will end up in the mess I got into with Noltec. Then I would order some wheels with a greater offset and do a 4-100 conversion if its legal. This is somthing that is easy to do in the off season the chop won't be.

By Jonathan (66.252.173.251) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 12:54 pm:

For the steering rod ends, I guess the high-end ones could be more adjustable, and maybe stronger than the stock ones.

For bushings material-wise, it would depend on what the application is. If you want, I can check at a company called "Just Suspension" about 2-3 miles away from where I work, they specialize in suspension parts and bushings. I can see if they would sell blocks of the material they make bushings and stuff out of, maybe they'll sell the raw materials for a make-your-own set. A good polyurethane should be strong enough for motor mounts/torque rod bearings etc. There's a company I dealt with at a previous job called Acme Plastics, and they had almost every type of plastic imaginable in many different shapes and sizes. They're in West Paterson, NJ, right off of Rt. 80 if you're ever up in the area. I have the guy's name in the commercial sales department, he's pretty good at finding the strange stuff. If I had a lathe and milling machine, I'd be doing much more of this type of thing, but current space limitations are keeping me back at the moment.

By Zippy (Zippy) (67.106.175.3) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 10:33 am:

Thanks Jonathan,
Actually I was refering to the steering rod end, not the piston rod. The engine is for next year.

If I'm going to cut my own bearings what material should I use?

By Jonathan (66.252.173.251) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 10:16 am:

Roger, your best bet would probably be to get a complete car from a charity auction, e-bay, or just keeping your eye out while driving. You can probably pick up something that's been hit in the rear real cheap, and it'll have all the front suspension intact. Check out your local fire departments/first aid squads too. They use junk cars for practice with the jaws of life and such, you could probably get one of the cars for free after they've gotten through with it. The wider car will fit on your trailer, right?
As for your bushings, I don't know if metal will be TOO stiff for your application. You can try going to a plastics supply place and getting a few blocks of polyurethane, they should work just as well on the lathe. I've used blocks of Delrin on a milling machine to make some small stuff, and it works real well. Much easier to machine than aluminum or steel.
As for the rods, I'm assuming you mean the connecting rods, correct? I thought that any noticable free play in a connecting rod was pretty bad. The higher end rods will allow you to make more power without the fear of bending or breaking a rod. The other advantage with a custom rod and pistons is that you can choose where you want your pistion pin, and with custom pistions, you can get whatever compression ratio you want. The only problem is that custom rods and pistons can get quite pricy.
With 262 mm rotors (about 10.3 inches), you'll have a little more than an inch of clearnance between the rotor and the wheel. If this is enough room for the newer calipers, then you should be good. If not, you'll at least have a set of wheels from your donor car, and being a newer Civic, you'll have much better aftermarket support.

By Zippy (Zippy) (67.106.175.3) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 09:38 am:

Lazy,

Thats EXACTLY the sort of advice I'm looking for. Double wish bone is great and legal! I think I'm sold! :-)

Can 13" wheels fit over those brakes?

Are there any better performing fwd substitutes with similar characteristics. Prelude/Acura/etc.

How much is reasonable to pay for say a cutoff of eveything from the firewall forward except the motor, fenders, hood, lights, grill etc.

Does anybody here have anything to sell me?

Bruce, what type of suspension does your Accord have?

By bruce (67.200.12.4) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 08:48 am:

I have an 86 accord sitting here......going to the scrap yard very soon. it has the whole front end.

By lazy (210.11.216.11) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 08:33 am:

If I were in your shoes, I'd go to a wrecker and buy the entire front suspension setup off a 1991+ civic (although the model really wouldn't matter) and take a whole stack of measurements of things such as suspension pickup points, strut tower heights and angles etc. (everything you need to replicate the donor's suspension geometry on 'Zippy').

Going the above route would give you:
1. the donor's superior double wishbone setup with its inherent adjustability.
2. vented rotors with a diameter of at least 262mm.
3. 4x100 pcd stud pattern without any further fabrication or parts swapping.
4. an easily attainable strut and probably aftermarket coilovers (for when you do have some spare cash ).
5. If you kept the donor car's track (e.g. 58" for ~91 civics) you'd be able to use the donor's swaybar and steering rack.
6. 'Minimal' extra work if you were intending on going the route of a tube frame front.

All this does require you to initially purchase the donor's suspension setup, but like the saying goes: "short term pain, long term gain"... just sell your next of kin on the slave market (or better yet... eBay).

By Zippy (Zippy) (67.106.175.3) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 07:20 am:

So, here’s the deal. Zippy’s a DP SCCA Auto-Xer. My current front track width is about 54” but I am allowed to go up to 60”. I see this as a necessity, if I am ever going to be competitive at nationals. If I lengthen the control arm by 3 “ I have to remake everything, axles, steering arm, etc. so I might as well start from scratch. According to the rules, I am allowed more or less any front end I want. The specs are open for suspension, suspension mounting points, brakes, spindles, control arms, axles, steering rack, coil overs, shocks, etc. I can do pretty much anything I want. And, I have TOOLS. I can redo the engine mounts and strengthen or replace any structural member. I can cut away anything I need to do the job. So, one of my current ideas is to basically build a tube frame front and mount a suspension and everything onto that.

So I’m hoping you can help me brainstorm. What Honda front end could I use to substitute for the Civic front end. This could include ALL of the front end from the steering rack to the front cross member. I want 1) long control arms, 2) 4x100, 3) good brakes, 4) good struts, 5) faster steering wheel turn rate, 6) adjustability, and anything else we can think of.

$$ Money is a very important consideration because I basically have none. I can make a lot of stuff but I can’t buy very much. So, ideas like put on a this and that and then buy all of the after market goodies to upgrade aren’t going to work well. I am looking for stock stuff that I can modify to my needs using my band saw, welding, milling machine and lathe.

Also, I am thinking that I don’t want to spend the $$ on bearings for my suspension so I will simply cut solid metal bushings on my lathe to replace the soft bushings and tap in a grease fitting at each location. (does anybody have an issue with this)

I was looking at a rod end off of Zippy. I looks quite snug, not allowing any play. I don’t understand what an aftermarket high-end rod end will do for me. Somebody tell me please.

I guess that’s about it. I hope to generate some conversation here, so spill. Thanks