Well,
Thank you all very much for you input. I'll be using it when I design the next generation Zippy.

By Lemke (67.234.83.187) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 03:04 pm:

One more thought...
It is more important to get your cross weights even than chasing a certain front/rear percentage. Nearly equal cross weights will produce a much more predictable car. Then you can determine how much your front end is biting or not biting, and play around with static weight placement like Don said. Thats what I do...

By Lemke (67.234.83.187) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 02:57 pm:

Something else to think about...
For the most part, front wheel drive cars like to be front heavy. As your car (Civic) becomes lower and stiffer, you need to dial in a greater percentage of front wheel weight. Why? The stiffer the car is, the less weight will be transferred although what weight is transferred, it will occur much faster... a simple concept that is often overlooked. Don is right about equalizing corner ride heights... unless you really know the ins and outs of weight jacking, you can get into real trouble, real quick. Static settings are one thing, but you are also changing the dynamic settings, and its not a linear/parallel effect.
A static front/rear goal might be 55/45. As your Civic gets faster and faster, the closer you try to remain at 50/50, the more understeer you will experience. More front weight equals more bite! On shorter/tighter road race tracks, I will be closer to a 60/40 percentage. You must consider ALL things... contact patch, tire compound, spring rates, strut valving, sway bar diameter and lever arm length, and the road you are trying to put the beat down on. Keep testing to find the setup that works with your driving style, and the components on your ride.
Good luck-

By Zippy (Zippy) (12.106.14.107) on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:37 am:

Thanks guys,
Adrians car is about 59%front 41%rear. That means I should do whatever is reasonabley possible to pull weight off the front. Don, I understand what you mean about corner weights and you are right. Weights are just 1 element in the car's preformance. If you ever get yours on scales post the data.

By Don (199.2.139.207) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 06:14 pm:

I dont set corner weights I set corner height.
Alot of peple get obsessed with wieght and start cranking the adjusters till the car sets crooked. They may have better weight distribution but look at what they did to the geometry.
While the car is moving no wheel has equal weight anyway... Hit the brakes weight transfers forward.. Gas weight goes back... corners... un even pavent... List goes on so try setting corner weights but realize its not very productive. Static weight placement is helpful.

By Adrian (Evocivic) (165.228.11.61) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 05:35 pm:

Here is the results of when I corner-weighted my car several years ago. It won't mean a lot to you people who drive on the wrong side .
I'm sure you all know the extent of the roll cage in this car , which is built for both rigidity and significant rollover protection. The driver's seat is mounted relatively high and not in a significantly different location to standard (I like to be able to see where I'm going). The battery is where the left rear passenger would sit.

Without driver
With driver

Before
	kg	%	kg	%	kg	%
Front Left	236	31.2			211	27.9	Front Right
	248	29.4			242	28.6
Diagonal (FL,RR)			401	53.1
			448	53.0
Left Side	379	50.2			377	49.8	Right Side
	403	47.6			442	52.3
Diagonal (FR, RL)			354	46.9
			397	47.0
Rear Left	143	18.9			166	22.0	Rear Right
	155	18.3			200	23.7
Total			756	100
			845	100
After
	kg	%	kg	%	kg	%
Front Left	224	29.7			223	29.5	Front Right
	235	27.8			255	30.2
Diagonal (FL, RR)			377	49.9
			424	50.2
Left Side	379	50.2			377	49.8	Right Side
	403	47.6			441	52.3
Diagonal (FR, RL)			378	50.1
			420	49.8
Rear Left	155	20.5			154	20.3	Rear Right
	169	20.0			186	22.0
Total			756	100
			845	100

By Zippy (Zippy) (12.106.14.107) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 02:16 pm:

Yeah,
I'm in DP. I know it'll help. In some tough corners, when I realy hook up, I can feel the car warp around me. Kind of creepy. When I jack it up it seems very stiff, each side rises square and even.

Don, if you ever get you car weighed let me know the distribution. Wait! How do you set your corner weights with out scales? You don't use a ruler do you?

By Don (199.2.139.175) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 01:05 pm:

The cage is not to add weight... its to stiffen the chassis In Autox the speeds arent that great so the value of a cage is to stiffen the car rather than roll over protection. A welded in cage can make a huge difference if done properly or if not be nothing more than a lump of iron. Do this!!! It makes a HUGE diference in cornering.
In prepared the weld in cage is legal In FSP you have to run under the IT rules to get away with a cage welded to the car.
I dont know never put it on the scales,But its somthing I was planing to do.

By Ted (63.224.195.169) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 12:36 pm:

I can tell you my car rolls a bit more to the left in hard right turns. I've seen my footage and it's clear I tend to plow more becuase I'm on the left side. Car compensates by hooking up well in hard left turns.

By Jonathan (66.252.173.251) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 07:38 am:

Roger, I don't think you'll see much of a front/rear weight distribution change with adding a cage, unless the cage weighs quite a bit. How complex of a cage is it? The one from the white car? Worst case, you'd be adding all the weight of the cage over the rear wheels. Add the weight of the cage to the 600, and you can get your new front/rear weight distribution. What you'll probably wind up with is the weight of the cage on the rear mostly, but some on the front as well. You might see some handling improvement from the extra rigidity the cage provides.

One other thing you might want to consider is your right/left weight distribution. These cars were designed as a right hand drive car, with the engine on the left to compensate. Left hand drive cars have the driver and the engine on the same side. Do you find you're faster/slower in one direction turn than the other? If I wasn't in the market to buy a house right now, I'd think about importing a RHD Civic from New Zealand/Aus. to make into an autocross car .

By Zippy (Zippy) (12.106.14.107) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 07:00 am:

Thx Don,
I think I'll move my seat as far as is easy. I am still curious about a specific weight distribution of your car. Without any cage or other reinforcement it weighs about 1340 lbs (drag strip scale). I put the car on bathroom scales. The rear was about 600 and the front totalled the scales. That puts me at about 55% front and 45% rear. If thats real it's not too bad but I don't trust my numbers too much. How much should I expect that to change with a cage?

By Don (199.2.139.189) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 07:31 am:

My seat is moved down back and to the center but I'm not sitting in the rear area either.

Its not that hard to do as the column is actually
more straight moved down and about 2.5 " to the right. I dont like it when the rear tires stick too well. I want the fronts to stick and they do the steering and pulling. The rear if its loose is great for me. It corners faster just having the rear float around within reason.

You cant go by Huffakers because its a rear wheel drive car now! The engine sits back too.

Dont worry about coments made by others, I dont know why he posted his picture either just goes to show hardly anyone is perfect looking.

By Zippy (Zippy) (12.106.14.107) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 06:47 am:

I was looking at Zippy. I do that a lot lately. I have no money or time to dedicate to it so I just look at it. I'm at a stage (again) where I have no $$ so all I can do is take the car further apart. So I'm thinking of totally stripping the chasis and putting in the cage and painting and reassembling the car with only properly prepared parts, not this jury-rig I have now.

So, thanks to Jared I was considering the location of my 195 pounds of ugly fat. I was considering the location of the drivers seat. Huffaker of Mini fame, sits nearly where the back seat would be. He sits so far back that he was black flagged for not having a window net but when he came in they saw that the window net was not really visible because it was behind the door pillar and visible in the rear side window.

So what is the wieght distribution of your race Civic and how much good could be achieved by moving the drivers seat back and centering it as much allowed?