thankyou gentlemen

hugh :D

By Don (199.2.139.157) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 08:14 pm:

Get a hold of the guy in NZ He has the Homologation papers and the Mugen MS sheets.

I forget his name but he has a Red Early civic on the other Civic web site. I have all the papers but NZ is cheaper shipping.
Now On the water outlet John Lemke plumbs both sides of the head for water but you probably cant do that for the rules. The thing about making a custom outlet is that it can go up down or sideways but if it goes down you had better have an air bleed in it.
As For Johnny I never remember you contributing any thing to the board any way so why should we miss you?
As for constructive comments you have a guy asking vague questions about hot parts. I was waiting to get more info and see if he would make things right if the opportunity arose.

As for the Mugen Parts my point was they are old parts so don’t go paying someone's greedy ransom on a trumped up story as you can get parts made that are as good or better if the rules allow.

By Adrian (Evocivic) (141.168.20.152) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 06:03 pm:

Ok, you are missing a rather vital piece that has the thermostat at the top, heater takeoff on one side and also the temp. sensor in it. I'll see if I can take a picture for you a bit later...

By Jonny (24.64.223.204) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 12:34 pm:

I have to say that I am sick of this board and all the snotty attitudes here.. I havent posted anything for a while because of the way people treat other people on this board... I'm sick of it... seeing attitudes like the ones i constantly see here... people always hacking other people down... not giving constuructive answers to questions... This board sucks now!

By Andrew Fatseas (218.214.76.182) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 08:03 am:

Will someone please give poor Hugh some hints about how to cool his motor down, I'm sick of seeing him ask the question.

As for camshafts, there are a number of options available, including a copy of the R1 which can still be made as the master is here in Australia. I'm sure if you ask the right people nicely and drop the sarcasm and attempts at humour you will progress.

As Don says, you are long on questions and short on descriptive detail as to what it is you want.

Cheers,

Andrew

By Hugh Johnson (Oneson1) (144.138.198.1) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 07:19 am:

I keep asking about the cooling system because I don't know what the missing part of the manifold comprises, did it contain the thermostat and allow for a heater take off pipe? or were these entirely seperate. does anyone have one they'd like to sell or even photograph? thats why.

I ran a group g (aussie rally class) civic in the early eighties so I know what is envolved, back then I either used 1500 3 row radiators or mazda alloy crossflow jobbies as well as a seperate oilcooler mounted over the gearbox with its own cool air ducting as the sump guard stopped all airflow over the sump and pushed the oil temp well over 200 f. The engine was a 1234 with an eb2 head with coupe 7 valves, a casi manifold and a 45 sidedraft choked at about 32mm and a set of Jack mays 4-2-1 extractors. The forged dome topped pistons gave 10.5 to 1 compression ratio,the cam was a fairly forgetable and badly designed but at the time it was all that was available, and all this gave about 82 hp at the wheels. so I have done this before, but I may face some homologation problems unless I can answer questions about the origional configuration of the cooling system after the manifold.

I did not know that "george" has been caught out here before, and if the stuff I
bought off him is bent well so be it and the genuine owner is more than welcome to have it all back, I have no problem dealing with the coppers at all. There are no markings at all on the carb and manifold except for "mugen" and "racing only". There is no sign of any attempt to remove any identification or serial numbers. If any ione would like to examine the gear and challenge this you are more than welcome. I live in melbourne Australia, my e-mail address is oneson1@yahoo.com and my mobile phone number is 0408 334 615

.....now will someone help me with the cooling system configuration please....

By Don (199.2.139.193) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 05:54 am:

Why Do you keep asking about a cooling system?
You dont give what your guide lines are! Rules, budget, compression ratio and rpm of your engine all make a difference. Don't wait for George to come up with one of those its probably not going to happen.
Bryan Already suggested a path but here’s a spelled out version that may be of help.
If you are indeed building a vintage rally car out of a Honda 1200 then you must know that some parts are going to have to be fabricated. I know you could have a watter neck welded up or milled or maybe a bit of both and yes it may cost more than $500 but most likely not. For the rest of the system a custom aluminum radiator is ideal for everything except the budget and think strongly about having an oil cooler installed in one of the tanks. It will help keep your oil temps more stable than an air cooled oil cooler.
Oh and in the future don't buy suspect parts from suspect people! From the hints given on the board sounds like Coppers may be on the way and you don't get to keep stolen parts even if you pay good money for them at least here in the USA.
As for advice... You the car owner must weigh the advice you recieve and make the choices.. that said if you go slow there is only one person at fault, the nut behind the wheel or in front of the mirror.

By Hugh Johnson (Oneson1) (144.138.198.112) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 12:44 am:

indeed you can buy off the shelf and go slowly, slower with bad advice and engineering, furthermore yuo can ignore everyone and confirm what they were thinking in the first place. I am after a good fast road-rally type cam for the initial encarnation of this motor and any type, modern or not will be considered. now about this cooling system.........

hugh:D

By Don (199.2.139.198) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 07:32 pm:

I sold the MS1 cam to Frito for less than a regrind. I have 4 "blanks" on the shelf got them from King (the usa mugen dealer) I guess they found out long ago that you can buy off the shelf or you can go fast

By Bryan (66.245.24.148) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 01:54 pm:

Hugh,

Don is right about the Mugen cam not being as good as the newest designs out there at your disposal, however he was NOT talking about a regrind. Regrinding a cam makes the base circle smaller and also gets into the core deeply removing the surface hardness. It takes so much off the core diameter to be able to make the lobes larger. It's a very bad idea if you are trying to copy are even come close to the Mugen grind. You might still be able to find a cam grinder that has some new castings to grind. I found some several months ago, and bought them all.

It was a great find to get all the goodies including the angle drive for the dist. I'll bet you are excited!!! As far as the water outlet goes, I am not sure what it looks like, but it should not be hard to come up with something that works. I know it will be a lot easier than coming up with the angle drive. I need one of those too. I think I am going with crank trigger anyway.

Bryan

By Randy (199.243.98.218) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 11:10 am:

Don since you brought it up.

Don what you say about Mugen is just your opinion and not how others actualy feel about having Mugen products on their car. Weather it be a sticker a rocker cover or even a LSD people are entitled to have a desire for these things at what cost they feel is aceptable to them and it gives them pride in their Honda.

Oh yeah, I wanted nothing to do with the Mugen covers because Don was involved and insulting during my inquiry of the header run and could not handle the fact that I backed out to seek a header closer to home. If it had been anyone else there would be no problem making copies.

Attitudes are contagious. Is yours worth catching?

By Curious (203.63.44.193) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 07:43 am:

So Hugh, was "George's" name actually George, or something different perhaps? Is there anything unusual engraved on the carbies?

By Hugh Johnson (Oneson1) (144.138.198.118) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 03:09 am:

Ps, the whole lot, including all the complete aircleaner assy incl filter to work from (good for Rallying) angle drive, exhaust manifold and gauge set cost $500 US, about the same as that exhaust manifold went for on e-bay, I dont pay too much....."it may be a whim, but it's only a hobby!".....now about that cooling system......

hugh:D

By Hugh Johnson (Oneson1) (144.138.198.118) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 02:55 am:

We have vintage rallying and in a year or so a civic will be eligable with allthe appropriate bits and yes sure i'll be happy with a regrind and a mugen rocker cover is a whim, but it's my whim and a 73 2 dooor sedan hysterical (historical :D) rally car is going to be my birthday pressie to me in about 18 months time. Now have you got a problem with that! no.... good, now about this cooling system..........

hugh:D

By Don (199.2.139.155) on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 09:18 pm:

About Mugen 1200 parts... There cool and nostalgic but time has passed them by. I sold my cherry MS1 cam to Frito for less than a regrind... why because a good cam manufacture can grind profiles on a cam blank that will out power the Mugen grinds all day long... its called technology. My Mugen 1200 Lsd is Ok but I would gladly update to a newer model. Quad Carbs are neet but so are dellortos and webers... if you really want to get around a corner go FI. The AT engineering parts that I got my hands on were substandard compared to the quality on most of today's parts. Now the point Mugen parts are cool but don't spend big bucks on them..... Look at John Lemke his Gt5 car has a few Mugen pieces but most of it was built in a machine shop and its WAY WAY faster than any MS2 Mugen car of the 70’s. I don't think anyone cares if Randy sells his valve cover the only conversation I recall was the one with randy saying he wanted no part in helping in a run of copies.

By Randy (199.243.98.218) on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 09:58 am:

What is a Mugen rocker cover worth to you? I was going to sell mine on ebay and convinced not to. I will take a beating for selling it so it has got to be worth the flying fur.

By Hugh Johnson (Oneson1) (144.138.198.242) on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 07:59 am:

Hi all, I just got my grubby hands on a set of quad keihin carbies on a mugen manifold with aircleaner assy and mugen angle drive for the dissy.

Now, what I am missing, and wanting, is the bolt-on water outlet that fits on to the inlet manifold between the 3rd and 4th throats. I am assuming that this either contains a complete thermostat assembly or more likely attaches an upper hose to a remote one.

I am hoping that I dont need to obtain the mythical mugen head with the water outlet at the end over the gearbox. Any information, diagrams, photos or written available on this carbi/manifold setup and its cooling configuration would be greatly appreciated.

if anyone has an m1 cam they'd like to dispose of and a mugen rocker cover please contact me

hugh

ps: yes! george came through!!!!