Incidentally, a rattle gun (running from compressed air) makes getting the crank pulley and similar bolts off very easy. You hardly need to hold the pulley wheel in place, the rattle gun just hammers the bolt loose.

By Bleedy (Bleedy) (24.68.6.16) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 03:47 pm:

Don't worry about the crankshaft pulley thing, finally got that bolt off. Just took a few tries to jam the pulley properly!

By Bleedy (Bleedy) (24.68.6.16) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 11:12 pm:

We rebuilt the Keihin today, set the idle properly. She can finally drive it with the choke all the way in. :-) Also did the points, rotor, cap, plugs, fuel and air filter.

Question about the carb: we connected all the hoses back up, then realised one was missing. The vacuum advance has no hose going to it, and there is a open connection on the carb. The car seems to run fine so far, and we don't think we had the hose to begin with. The male connector for the hose on the vacuum advance is covered in grime, which seems to indicate it hasn't been covered by a hose in quite some time. Is it possible that this has been missing all the while? Could this account for her poor fuel economy (along with everything else)?

We were going to do the timing belt as well, but hit a snag... with the crankshaft pulley bold. We're having a hard time stopping the pulley from turning. When we did manage to stop it from turning, we busted not one but TWO extensions for the 3/8" drive ratchet. Didn't have the proper 1/2" drive socket for it, we're getting that tomorrow with a breaker bar. Even with the car in gear and somebody standing on the brakes, we were still turning the pulley. Any suggestions on how to get that sucker off? How important is it to have the TDC mark lined up when you detach it? Can anybody say specifically where the put something to jam the pulley?

Thanks everybody!

By Goodriver (Goodriver) (64.180.165.151) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 01:04 pm:

BOWWOW autoparts got good deals...

By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.171.165) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:13 pm:

Yeah an account can get you up to 40% off.. but lordo really is one of the more expensive places.. I just like that they usually have everything in stock. I find places asssociated with auto parts plus/uni select seem to be insanely cheap, the only catch is they usually have remote warehouses and it takes time to get stuff.. like 45 minutes..

-Richard

By Bleedy (Bleedy) (24.68.6.16) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 10:00 am:

Huh. I went to Lordco first, they told me $60 for the shoes and $45 for the wheel cylinders. Mind you, I asked for prices without an account. I'm going to start one next time I'm in there.

By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.171.165) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 02:11 am:

hehhe.. bleedy, remanufactured wheel cylinders, calipers and pads are pretty damned inexpensive and you get a nice clean part .
I paid (CDN funds) mostly from lordco, gorge auto supply and JB auto:

$20/rotor
$10/wheel cylinder
$16/rear axle set (springs and pins)
$6/front axle set (clips, pins and springs)
$25/ both back shoes
$20/ both front pads
$40/front caliper
$16/hydraulic hose
$40/wheel bearing
$20/inner and outer seals
$60/CV drive axle
$6 /bleed kit
$1.50/wheel nut
$1.50/wheel stud
$30-50/tire

Buy locally, this way you don't get screwed by shipping costs, general ebay crap and customs if it's from out of the country. Plus if you buy from a shop, you have a recourse if something goes wrong. I had to return a caliper because it was manufactured wrong.. no questions asked just a straight swap. I'd only really buy rare items on ebay just to save the hassle.

-Richard

By Bleedy (Bleedy) (24.68.6.16) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:54 am:

Hey Shea,

Yeah, I'm doing the eBay thing right now. Just got brake shoes for $2, and a wheel cylinder for $10. Saved about $80 CDN so far. Still looking for another wheel cylinder, and maybe some struts later.

By bruce (4.159.56.174) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 10:40 am:

your right I was, I always disconnected the lower arm at the strut. Might have to try the other way, I am going to have to replace the inner support when I change motors. (where the steering box goes) mine is pretty rusted out.

By Adrian (Evocivic) (141.168.20.152) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 10:25 pm:

Exactly! There is NO NEED to separate either lower control arm balljoint or tie rod end from the upright to change a driveshaft (trust me, I've done this MANY times).

By Andrew Fatseas (203.63.44.193) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 10:07 pm:

I think Bruce is suggesting that you need to remove the lower control arm from the steering knuckle (otherwise known as upright). This is not the case. I think Adrian is suggesting that you merely detach the lower control arm from its inner mount, and detach the radius rod from the control arm. This leaves the control arm still attached to the knuckle/hub assembly, but free to swing away from the car, allowing enough movement for the driveshaft to be popped out of the gearbox and removed.

By Canada76civic (Canada76civic) (68.146.162.237) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 08:08 am:

Thank you to all posters with their tips and knowledge...

I'm taking notes in file then i'm gonna print them off all together with the manual once I get that in mail.

Keep coming up with advice! I'll be sure to have some questions on my Ciivc whenever I'm working on the engine.

By bruce (4.159.56.84) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 06:13 am:

be careful taking the lower control arm off as not to rip the rubber boot. A ball joint tool will usually rip it. What I do is loosen the nut on the lower control arm, until the top of the nut is flush with the bolt. Then I use a large cold chisel between the end of the axle and the nut, hitting the chisel with a 2 lb. sledge, normally one or two good wacks pops the joint loose.

By Shea Laking (Sheaman71) (66.185.85.79) on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 06:50 pm:

Actually, a brief point with reguards to engine "overhauling."

Are you a registered e-bay user? If you are, you'll be quite surprised to find that damn near everything necessary to overhaul these engines to stock is available there and inexpensively, too! The only problem is getting all the parts one place at one time. If time is on your [and friend's cars's] side, then get it tuned up and running decent and collect the bits a little at a time. Don't overlook your local jobber or trade parts suppliers, the counter guy might look at you funny when he hears what you want parts for, but many of the common wear items are still available, you've just gotta know where to look.

Regards,
Shea

By Adrian (Evocivic) (141.168.20.152) on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 06:01 pm:

I'll ask my friend to spring for axles. It looks like a real pain to take them off

Actually it's one of the easier jobs on the car. You can change one in about 20 minutes without any trouble.
Jack up the car and pull the wheel off. Remove the split pin from the end of the CV. Put the wheel back on (without hub cap if you have them). Lower the car back onto the ground. Loosen the nut on the end of the CV (you may need a big breaker bar to do this). Jack the car back up and take the wheel off again. Disconnect the radius rod from the lower control arm and the control arm from the body. Slide the control arm off the radius rod. Swing the whole upright/brake assembly out, pulling the driveshaft out of the gearbox as you go (don't forget a tray under the box to catch spilled oil), slip the CV out of the drive flange. Then just reverse the procedure with the new driveshaft.
You need: Wheel brace, jack, pliers, breaker bar, 14, 17 & 32mm sockets (and ratchet spanner of course ... or a rattle gun makes it very easy ).

By Bleedy (Bleedy) (24.68.6.16) on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 02:46 pm:

Another question.

We're thinking of doing the headgasket. Not really sure if it's got any problems. The goes through oil pretty quickly, it's leaking out of at least the valve cover. Does anybody recommend doing the headgasket as a preventative measure, since this gasket is of unknown age? Maybe we should just leave it. Anything else we should do while we're in there if we are going to do it? I've heard you should only use Honda head gaskets. How much will that set me back?

By Bleedy (Bleedy) (24.68.6.16) on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 10:53 am:

Okay, cool.

I'll ask my friend to spring for axles. It looks like a real pain to take them off... I'll tell her to wait until she can afford a clutch too, maybe at transmission rebuild. Anybody have a price on rebuilding the 4 speed?

We'll probably do all the top end stuff soon, then wait on the axles. It's still drivable right now.

By bruce (66.20.225.163) on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 09:33 am:

easier to just replace the whole driveshaft as chaffneue said. most auto parts stores can still get them. I found a shop in St. Louis that has em on the shelf for about 70 bucks each. I have like 8 bad ones sitting around. rebuilding them is not real easy.

By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.171.165) on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 08:38 am:

IF the CV boots are ripped, then there's a really good chance that all the lube has drained and that dirt has completely destroyed the bearings (you'll get a sort of clunking sound on turning and accelerating/decelerating). Refurbished cv drveshafts are not that expensive, maybe $60-100 per once you return the old driveshaft.. the boots, straps and moly are probably $30-40 per boot and there's 4 of them in total, and that's assuming that the bearings and cups are still good. The problem is that you still have to remove the driveshaft to service the boots anyway. Pretty much all folks agree that replacing the driveshafts instead of the boots is a wise step. Google for CV servicing to see what I mean. here's an example: http://www.2carpros.com/topics/cvjoint.htm .
The wheel bearings are completely buried on these cars. you have to take off the entire steering knuckle and press out the bearing from the rear, the bearing itself is about $40-60 per bearing. SKF # B36. When you do the bearings, you should do the rotors and inner and outer knuckle seals. the rotors ares about $20 each and he seals are about $30.

-Richard

By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.171.165) on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 08:30 am:

IF the CV boots are ripped, then there's a really good chance that all the lube has drained and that dirt has completely destroyed the bearings (you'll get a sort of clunking sound on turning and accelerating/decelerating). Refurbished cv drveshafts are not that expensive, maybe $60-100 per once you return the old driveshaft.. the boots, straps and moly are probably $30-40 per boot and there's 4 of them in total, and that's assuming that the bearings and cups are still good. The problem is that you still have to remove the driveshaft to service the boots anyway. Pretty much all folks agree that replacing the driveshafts instead of the boots is a wise step. Google for CV servicing to see what I mean. here's an example: http://www.2carpros.com/topics/cvjoint.htm .
The wheel bearings are completely buried on these cars. you have to take off the entire steering knuckle and press out the bearing from the rear, the bearing itself is about $40-60 per bearing. SKF # B36. When you do the bearings, you should do the rotors and inner and outer knuckle seals. the rotors ares about $20 each and he seals are about $30.

-Richard

By Bleedy (Bleedy) (24.68.6.16) on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 03:16 am:

Hey Chauffneue,

When you say replace the driveshafts... is that necessary? Can I just replace the wheel bearings? Also, the CV boots aren't that much. Should we do them all at once, so we don't have to do it again?

I'm also going to see if I can talk her into doing something with the transmission. Clutch at least... what's the price range for a tranny rebuild/renewal?

By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.171.165) on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 12:37 am:

I've done or considered doing all of this stuff recently, so it's clear in my mind. The 4 speed tranny is fine.. I can hit 140km/h on it though it whines and complains a lot.. But the synchros (especially downshifting 3-2) tend to be pretty hurtin on old civics, so a tranny rebuild/renewal is not a bad idea if the cv's are both out of the car.. the Haynes gives a dandy lesson on dropping the tranny in car.. if you do that, do the clutch.. they're relatively expensive, but dropping the tranny is SUCH a pain in the ass, it's worth it never to have to look at it again
I'd caution you to do everything you can to avoid an engine rebuild.. a lot of parts are extremely hard to find and it would really such to goof something up and have no replacement parts. These cars are a great introduction to working on cars.. I had worked on little motorcycles before, so I had some wrenching skill and I found the Honda SO MUCH EASIER, except everything is heavier . You can do pretty much everything roadside, but I'd get the critical stuff like steering issues / alignment / wheels and balancing done by pros.. Be really careful of the balljoints on the control arm and steering linkage.. if those get torn, you're up poo creek.. The rubber bushings can be made from blanks or ordered as a kit from Australia.
As for Body, make friends with a body guy .. or pay in cash.. try to repair all the metal you can.. on my car the rear wheel wells are so rotten I can't jack up the car on the sills anymore (pretty common). If you see surface rust, scratch it off with some 240 grit sandpaper and blast it with a rust inhibiting paint (tremclad does a great job and is nice and dirt cheap). Pull the headliner out of the car, remove the carpets and rear trunkliner.. carefully look for dampness weaknesses in the roof, floorpan and trunk (under the spare tire). You'll want ot leave the carpets out and dry the car out for a few weeks. Put some baking soda in a few pieplates along with some RV drying pellets. Baking soda can make anything small new again as I found out with my back seat. replace all the door and hatch seals with universal bulb seal (expensive but it stops all leaks from the door and hatch edges). Check the fit and finish of doors, hatch and hood.. see if it has been in an accident. make sure the door, hatch and hood hinges are lubed with some kind of grease and try not to make a mess of the grease.. last thing you want is grease on your pants unless you like that kind of thing.
Carpeting can be replaced using outdoor carpeting from home depot and padding from any upholstery shop.. Just don't tear off the firewall's vinyl mat and insulation. Repair damage to seat rails immediately so you don't find your ass dragging on the ground. and cracks, rust holes and anything in between on the floorpan may warrant a new floorpan or bit so it replaced by welding. The roofliner is hard to find in good condition, so watch the forum for one, or get an upholstery shop to renew it (about $150 cdn).
clean off the old plastics and rubbers with acetone or lighter fluid. You can paint the hub covers with some touch up paint and a brush.. chrome polish will bring up the chrome, most of the alloy parts will only shine with a polishing wheel.
Whenever you've had rust seized brakes, make sure you purge the whole system and fill it back up again once all the new stuff is on, because a lot of air bubbles can get into the system when those piston seals let go. If the calipers are looking pretty rusty, I'd bet that they don't have much time. And as part of your maintenance, whenever you do your motor oil, clean off and put some grease on the metal parts (especially the slides) of each caliper to prevent rust.
I don't know how much I can stress this, but replace the battery and all of the fuses (even if they look fine) in the panel when you first get the car.. it'll save you from tracking down a dozen electrical gremlins when you go to fire her up.
Have fun with that car, they're so much fun that I want two now..

-Richard

By Bleedy (Bleedy) (24.68.6.16) on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 11:49 pm:

Thanks everybody! These are all really good ideas and pointers, keep 'em coming. it'd be cool to put all these bits of knowledge together in some kind of online tune up/rebuild guide.

I'll get some pics up soon I think, borrow a digital camera. I'll try to take pics of anything we do to it too. It's a real piece of work... piece of crap is more like it. ;-) Needs a lot of body work in addition to all the mechanical stuff.

Chauffneue, thanks for all the tips. I forgot to mention the wheel cylinders, which are apparently completely siezed. The front brakes were done recently and are in pretty decent shape.

Should probably do the struts to, rides pretty rough.

Transmission is also pretty dodgy, I'll have to ask my friend exactly how it feels. I haven't driven it yet, so I'm not sure. It's a 4 speed in case you're wondering.

By Butch Dennis (216.40.235.236) on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 09:32 pm:

The carb is one of the easiest to rebuild out there. With minimal mechanical aptitude, you won't have any problems. The other ideas listed here are all good.

Do a compression check on the engine while the plugs are out (prop the throttle wide open when spinning the engine) and look for consistancy across all cylinders.

Plan on checking the valve adjustment while the cover is off to do the gasket. Look closely at the oil pump drive gear (under a round aluminum cap with two 10mm headed bolts) and the gear on the cam that drives it. If either one look worn, replace the cam and the gear. If the cam gear gets worn smooth, the oil pump will quit working while your driving and ruin the bearings quickly.

Plan on taking the time to remove the oil pan while your at it (support the trans and remove the cross member). Look at the oil pump screen and replace it if it is clogged with sludge (finding one might be fun). Once you remove it, it is usually ruined. Have another screen in hand before you decide to remove it. Spray carb cleaner can be used to clean it if you cannot find one. And be sure to clean any sludge from the oil pan while it's off. If the cam drive gear was worn, plan on taking the oil pump apart and smooth the drive rod where it enters the oil pump. It is usually drags there and ruins the cam drive gear. The oil pump is an easy rebuild if you can find the paper gaskets that fit it. Don't put it together without the gasket, the pump gear will bind and drag.

Have fun and remember to oldest bit of advise I have ever heard: If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?

By Keil Shepherd (Medicineman) (81.131.91.35) on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 10:40 am:

Keihin isn't too bad to rebuild as long as you have some idea of what you're doing ;) Just make sure you don't put the float needle in too far and you could have a winner. Is the carb and air cleaner full of crud/ old oil? If so, ditch the breather pipework between the rocker cover and the air cleaner. Fit a K&N breather filter. My carb, air cleaner and manifold were gunked right up due to oil percolating up from the engine via this tube.

BTW, don't rely on just the Haynes manual, I've found a lot of mistakes in it. Have a look at e-bay, there's usually a good selection of period Honda manuals on offer.

Good luck with the project! Got any pics?

By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.171.165) on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 01:34 am:

The running-on usually means somethings up with the ignition/timing.. it's an easy fix. replace the belt by uncrewing the engine mount and pushing the engine to the side.. it's the easiest timing belt you'll ever do :D.. Time the motor like you'd do on any other car. Do the alternator belt too.. If both Cv's are shot, you've got a lot of work ahead of you.. You'll probably want to just replace the driveshafts because they're probably worn beyond repair with just boots and new grease. How are the gears and clutch? it might be a good time to tackle a tranny/engine rebuild if you have the time and money while the CV joints are out. Choke fiddling is common, but I'm guessing the spark is weak, so do the plugs, cap and rotor.. if the points look worn, replace those too.. I don't think you'll need to replace the condensor unless it starts to short out.. You'll probably need new brake pads/shoes, rotors, calipers and wheel cylinders as well as wheel bearings. I'm guessing the tires are rotten too.. it'll probably set you back about $600-700 for this stuff, the tools, the books and cleaners and solvents without any labour costs included. They're really fun cars once you get everything to behave (and get a stereo worth its salt installed). I'd probably say don't do an engine flush, just replace the filter, drain the pan and filler up. There's a chance the crud may be replacing seals at the moment ;) I doubt you want to make the situation worse. I'm gonna wager it needs coolant, a new thermostat, extensive interior repairs, new battery, brake flush and fill and replacement lines and lots of bodywork/paint. But you'll be havin fun eventually.. I'm into my car about $1500 total, and it rules even if it is a beater on the outside

-Richard

By Bleedy (Bleedy) (24.68.6.16) on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 12:02 am:

Hello,

My friend has just purchased a 77 Civic 1200. We took it to the Petro Can for an inspection... they told her it would cost three times the value of the car to get it up to snuff. If we pay them to do it...

So, we'll be working on the car in the driveway looks like. I bought the Haynes, priced out some parts. We'll be doing a few things soon I think. Among them:

Timing belt (Anything else we should do while we're doing this? Headgasket? Water pump, etc?)
Valve cover gastket
2 CV boots
Fluid change, all around
Front strut mounts (Little rubber things, all cracked and hard.)
Plugs, rotor, cap, fuel filter, air filter, condensor... anything else?)
Oil change.

Possible a carb rebuild. I've done one of these before, on my friends Omega. Car ran very well after. She's got a Keihin on there. Anybody rebuild one before? Any more difficult than any other carb? The manual said don't do it unless you absolutely have to... The choke is all messed up, she can only drive with it somewhere in the middle, the car stalls otherwise.

I was also thinking of maybe using some combustion chamber cleaner. Many people say it does wonders, other have had problems with misfiring. Usually a plug change fixes that.

Also, how about an oil system flush? A lot of people use transmission fluid. Fill it up, turn it on, empty it, fill it with oil again. Supposedly it gets out all the sludge.

There are some other things to do, these seem to be the most pressing. The car is hard to start, requires a lot of choke fiddling. It also runs on after shutting it off...

I've got a fair amount of experience, and good mechanical aptitude as well as the manual, so I feel comfortable tackling anything. Let me know if I'm forgetting anything on the list, or if any of it sounds stupid.

Thanks!