I saw this article on the web. I think I now have a better understanding of DCOE's and how to set them up provided the article is accurate. What do you guys think?

http://members.aol.com/dvandrews/webers.htm

By John S. (68.91.83.125) on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 05:56 pm:

Hi Rick, If you remember I was out there in San Fran visiting you two summers ago and held that exact manifold in my hands. If my memory serves me correct the runners are forced to take very abrupt turns. It is not as smooth a design as the one shown on your link for the BMW. Which looks to me to be a more modern and better thought out version of of the one designed for the Honda motors, there again space is not at such a premium under the hood of a BMW as our Hondas. As I said I was also looking for one like yours, but I would definitely only think of using it in a Turbo application. The boost pressure would overcome the basic restrictive design, though even in a turbo application it would still not be capable of producing as much power as perhaps a smoother design. If the Honda Lynx manifold looked as nice as the one for the Bimmer I'd be tripping over myself to get one. Still the proof IS in the pudding, and I am hoping that when you get the setup up and running it will work much better that it Looks like it should...to me. I anycase, they might be a good place to turn to for some help in jetting the damn thing....which is gobbs harder than simply bolting it together. As far as the design idea of crossing over the inlet tubes on the manifold I believe it was actually Offenhauser who first took this approach. I have an Offenhauser intake of this ,(what they call a dual plane) approach which fits my 300 CI ford six truck motor, and it is the best design for the street, overall driveability, and torque i.e. economy ever produced for any of the six cyl applications...they also produced them for much of the earlier four cyl stuff, but alas not our beloved Hondas. One last thought, It might be worth considering the extrude hone process as their technique could lessen some of the restrictions...people are using extrude hone on factory FI manifolds with good success as it is claimed not to remove large amounts of material, so much as creating a better more natural fluidity...i.e.flow. Kind of like a mild "street" port job.

By Quikrick (Quikrick) (63.204.16.66) on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 11:00 am:

Hey John, you keep talking about the poor design of the Lynx manifold, But here is a link to a good explanation of how it works. Unless I'm missing something, it sounds pretty smart! The explanation is at the bottom of the page. Even though it's talking about a BMW it still applies.
http://www.racetep.com/0245single.html
BMW 2002 Single Sidedraft Weber Conversion. Top-End Performance 818 764-1901

By John S. (66.143.44.35) on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 03:10 am:

Actually Rick, the direction you are heading in is good, but I would still pursue the Dellorto blow through seal kit which was a factory item on several Euro spec cars, the front drive Alfasud for one. Pressurizing the carburator helps to deal with a couple of problems common to most Turbo-carb setups, and as I stated earlier would help to overcome the basic design weakness of that Lynx manifold. By the way short intake runners are ordinarily good for top end power, but really kill the bottom and mid range (of normally aspirated motors). Punch in "Turbo Dellorto" on the web and you should find a rather lengthy website about a Swede who did it to his Mini...If anyone can make Turbos work, I does seem to be the Swedes.

By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.190.188) on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 05:03 pm:

Umm.. yeah those carbs look great, Quikrick.. I would also like to caress them.. :D seriously, I can't wait to do something better with my fuel system and exhaust and feel a little more buried in the seat.. Perhaps one of these days I'll go paw around some wrecking yards for some 4 banger injector parts and look into a programmable ecu to attach it all to, and see if I can devise something interesting.. It's either that, or drop in a CRX or 90's D16 motor. I feel so attached to the 1200 in it now and I've got lots of new parts for it. Reality is that I'm going to pull it in the near future at least to do the seals, engine and suspension mounts, tranny and tuning.. and I'm guessing it will be once the car is no longer fun to drive or really broken. :D

-Richard


-Richard

By Quikrick (Quikrick) (63.204.16.66) on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 01:53 pm:

There is nothing wrong with dreaming, as a matter of fact dreams are what provoke us to do better. Iv'e been kicking around this site since day one and have heard many many dreams. So many of those dream seem to have disappeared! Engine swaps, Turbo's, super charges, EFI... you name it, only a few (very few) have had the money and brains to succeed.
My carb and manifold are real, I can touch them, feel them, caress them (OOOH)...
In my humble opinion, one polished turd is better than nothing!

By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (142.104.250.115) on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 01:27 pm:

Assuming other parts of the car have been tuned... has anyone actually put some research into a sequential multiport injector system for the 1200 (or at least a single port throttle body injector)? I'd really kill to do away with the carb altogether and I'm sure it would smooth out the ride and stop a lot of the annoying sputtering in really hard corners and u-turns.. I could talk to my machinist budy about making or adapting a manifold and look into adding a pump to the tank (or even using a different tank) if it's even possible. I'm guessing the other key to such a project is money. :D It may just be easier to buy a motor that has all the stuff attached to it instead of polishing a turd.

-Richard

By Quikrick (Quikrick) (63.204.16.66) on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 09:57 am:

By Quikrick (Quikrick) (63.204.16.66) on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 09:38 am:

This is my work in progress...
I bolted it together for the pics,
This is a DellOrto DHLA 40. I'm in the process of polishing the manifold also.

By Don (199.2.139.206) on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 05:41 am:

Fuel injection is easier to tune, I have worked on a few laptop tuneable systems and with most if you need to make adjustments you click the mouse
Lots easier than ordering parts from italy waiting weeks. I have been hearing about a Mega squirt system that could be assembled for a few hundred bucks. I have not checked into it yet though.

By Kurt (205.250.75.226) on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 12:51 am:

Ya, or sidedraft carbs

By Justin (24.83.36.37) on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 11:34 pm:

Fuel Injection

By Kyle Thomson (24.83.12.187) on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 09:47 pm:

Same here, although it only really stalls if you have the clutch in and are really pushing it hard through a tight right hander. If you have the rpms up enough the weight of the vehicle keeps it running

By Kurt (205.250.75.226) on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 09:35 pm:

Yup, even with my car that is strictly a street car the minute you took a right turn fast enough it would lean out causing the engine to sputter and hiccup.

By Don (199.2.139.230) on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 08:32 pm:

John The DGV is fine for a civic with street tires and soft suspension but the minute you do something close to competive in autocrossing etc it has SEVERE fuel problems. The bowl is just like you said designed for jeeps, landcrusers, 510s with the engines mounted in the rwd direction and the minute you mount it on a fwd honda and turn a corner with any G force the float gets slamed shut cornering one way, then held open when you turn the otherway. Ask Ted or Charles about how the love DGV's.... Bottom line most people toss them because its easier than the mods to mak them work.

By Don (199.2.139.212) on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 07:29 pm:

If your going to use a turbo then
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33558&item=7935159591&rd=1
may be in order Fuel injection is the only way to go if you serious about turbo

A few smaller weber style bodies pop up every week or so on ebay

By John S. (67.65.63.146) on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 07:18 pm:

Greg,
I personally think the only use for that particular manifold is with a blow through Turbo Dellorto setup. That is an extremely restrictive and poorly engineered manifold, though I suppose it may have been the best they could do given space constraints etc. The Turbo aspect would in part make up for the bad design.I was looking for one of those myself until I became convinced that the City Turbo manifold would in fact be a virtual bolt on. As a stand alone naturally aspirated manifold, you are really better off using the stock Honda intake, or even better an earlier pre EGR stock Honda intake, and a downdraft Weber. Still,you may be able to get some jetting specs from Pierce Manifolds for that sidedraft setup...if you are lucky.
I don't see why so many people think so little of those DGV carbs. They are very user friendly and extremely reliable. At one time they were the standard retro fit carb for almost all four and six cylinder applications. They use them on Jeeps and Toyota Landcruisers in case you are thinking they cannot flow enough fuel. It is all in the jetting. If you don't care so much about fuel economy then there is the DGAS Weber ...if you can find one...which was a dual 36mm barrell version of a DGV with both barrells cammed together, and they can flow way more fuel than would ever be needed on any of the early Honda motors.
Good luck with your "voyage"...you are once again in uncharted waters...or as I often like to say when My "weather" starts getting rough...a three hour tour.

By Don (199.2.139.165) on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 05:24 pm:

Mikuni PHH are the most refined side draft carb but they are no longer in production and there in demand so the prices are $$$
They made them in 36 for the small body carbs then the 40 and 44 that have the same bolt pattern as webers dcoe.

Delortos are fine too but they are the hardest to get parts for just....ask Bryan about this carbs sometime.

By Kurt (205.250.75.226) on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 05:10 pm:

by a Dellorto DHLA! IF you want one email me and I can pass on the email adress to the guy. He's in the motherland for these carbs - in Italy

redr2@telus.net

By greg tingler (Tropic81) (141.153.93.43) on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 12:31 pm:

I just scored a Lynx DCOE single sidedraft manifold from Ebay. So what do you guys thinks I should do from here?

By greg tingler (Tropic81) (141.153.93.43) on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 03:32 pm:

Thanks again. Sounds like a difficult undertaking.

By John S. (67.65.58.189) on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 11:33 am:

Greg read my post on the other thread, but I will say the problem with going to muliple webers is, you are then in "uncharted waters". There are no jetting specs anywhere to tell you where to start let alone where you need to finish. Reminds me of a comment Jim Pietras once said about when he was trying to get a single Weber DCOE jetted to work on his 1200, "Weber means- takes 500.00 to get the f____n thing to work". This is not so big a problem with the DGV series carbs as basic jetting specs do exist for them. They may not be exact for all applications but they do get you in the ball park. By the way Jim finally went for the dual dellorto setup. There are specs around for them (1200 only).

By greg tingler (Tropic81) (141.153.93.43) on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 07:14 am:

I've thought about it, but I can't find a dual sidedraft manifold. I guess I could go with a single downdraft, but I'm just not sure how much power the EK1 will generate w/ my mods. I've been thinking about a H22 transplant although I know that will be very expensive and I wonder if it is even possible.

By 79EK1 (63.195.80.15) on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 09:12 pm:

Greg, I really like the description of the '79 EK1 in your other post. I've done similar mods to mine. Have you thought about adding a Weber and transplanting it into your Prelude? Dan

By greg tingler (Tropic81) (141.153.93.43) on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 03:04 pm:

I was afraid of that. It's an '81 Prelude. Everything is stock and the engine has 55,000 miles, but it has been sitting for quite a long time. I bought a factory service manual, but I haven't really had a chance to check everything out yet as I removed the gas tank and am having it cleaned and treated. I'd almost be willing to change over to a dual carb setup if I could find a manifold. BTW I have a '79 EK1 from an Accord that has been modified pretty extensively. It's in my "Just Curious" post. Any thoughts on that engine.

Thanks for the help.

By 79EK1 (63.195.80.15) on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 02:21 pm:

Greg, Probably not. The vacuum is used to open the vents on the fuel bowls, the fast idle unloader, dashpot, and the secondary throttle valve, among other things. What year is your EK1? I have the factory diagrams for the 79, if that will help. Dan

By greg tingler (Tropic81) (141.153.93.43) on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 01:46 pm:

I replaced the carb on my EK1 w/ a rebuilt 3 barrel from Advance Auto, but I can't get it to idle. The engine surges up to about 5g and that is when I feather the pedal. If I don't feather the gas then it dies. I think I may have a few vacuum lines crossed, but I'm not sure. Can I get by with sealing off all the vacuum lines except for the dizzy advance and brake booster? If so, how will that affect driveability? Thanks.