I have a feeling we are talking about entirely different things...

I meant the bracket that holds the sleeve of the handbrake cable, its an oval on one side and a crescent on the other!

And another slight correction, the hydraulic brake lines do not bolt up. However the ones off the front of my 2nd gen Civic do! I love Honda!

By Colza (Colza) (219.88.29.23) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 11:03 pm:

I have a feeling we are talking about entirely different things...

I meant the bracket that holds the sleeve of the handbrake cable, its an oval on one side and a crescent on the other!

And another slight correction, the hydraulic brake lines do not bolt up. However the ones off the front of my 2nd gen Civic do! I love Honda!

By John S. (68.93.178.2) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 10:11 pm:

Well there is an advantage to us that they make more than one shape(kind) of bracket. The setup I have using the Acura pieces has a bracket that normally comes off in a workable angle. But set up for the 2nd Gen...Left on the right side...the caliper mounts to the front and high (around 1 o'clock), and would put an impossible bend in the emergency brake cables. Using the ones that come off at an angle reduces this to a workable angle. Thank goodness for "You Wrench It" where you can go around comparing stuff. I'd never figure out any of this stuff if I had to depend on shop manuals, or even worse parts counters in the dealerships. I spent over an hour on the phone last summer to every Hundai dealership in town trying to find out what the bolt pattern was on the Accent and NONE of them could tell me and neither could the mechanics. Took me ten seconds at You Wrench It two days ago to trial fit one of the Audi 4000 alloys I was buying for my CVCC...4X100mm.

By Colza (Colza) (219.88.31.217) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 09:30 pm:

I just found out about the cable attatchemnts now =P Why did they put a different size bracket on the left side to the one on the right?! As far as i can see the 2 cables are 100% identical apart from the different size bracket on the end, and its only about 0.5mm

Maybe the designer was bored?

By John S. (66.143.45.142) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 07:01 am:

Yep, I knew you would do that, no room for the caliper on the backside due to the suspension pivot arm etc. Also another thing that might help you is that there are different cable attachment pieces. I don't know exactly what Honda calls it, but it is the piece that bolts to the rear of the caliper(two bolts) and the cable fits into it. Anyhoo some come off straight up and down, some of them for different model cars(Acura Integra) come off at an angle. All Honda rear calipers themselves are the same so Honda/Acura uses different brackets etc. to fit them into different cars.

By Colza (Colza) (210.54.193.160) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 02:25 am:

Ok, change of plan.

Having jiggled and re jiggled the position of the caliper, it is now sitting with the bracket 180 degrees round from where it sits on the 'lude (on the front side not the back). This means you have to use the left side caliper on the right hub. Which of course means the handbrake cable is now pointing backwards not forwards. Sigh.

New plan is to use the 'lude handbrake cable, run it to the back of the wheel arch, then round the back of the tirewell and attach up to the opposite side of the splitter from the handbrake handle. This is assuming that the cable attatchments are the same but i should imagine they are. Will try that out tomorrow.

Can confirm that the hydraulic brake hose does bolt up, and the best plan for a bracket seems to be one that bolts to the top of the hub and extends upward. This will avoid having to touch the shock, and will hopefully work out nice and neat

By John S. (68.94.114.236) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 05:08 pm:

Absolutely, I have a 2nd Gen rear swing arm on a table in the shop to mock it all up on, (killed two 2nd gen cars over the years).

By Colza (Colza) (210.54.66.39) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 01:27 am:

I shall continue to assemble stuff as i get time over the next week or so. Having a parts car to plan it all out on makes life MUCH easier!

By John S. (66.136.148.42) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 07:24 pm:

That will drop a noticeable amount of weight if it works OK. I guess it depends on the quality of the weld buildup. I would be willing to bet that warpage could be a problem though, and I had already considered that, and the fact that the finished welded up pieces would probably need surface planed...more money, but we'll see, maybe you can get by without it. If it works for you, I might just go that route myself, as I already have the parts, and as said earlier it will be a lighter finished assembly.

By Colza (Colza) (219.88.29.246) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 12:51 am:

I see. Here is whay i have decided on so far:

The '85 Prelude brakes are a gift from the Honda gods. The caliper brakets will be moddified by enlarging 2 diagonal bolt holes to match the 2nd gen stub axle plate and then building up the cast steel with weld to allow some more meat to place 2 new holes. The bolts used need to be about 10mm longer than the Honda ones and 8.8 steel will be plenty strong enough. The whole Prelude assembly now bolts straight on. The hydraulic brake lines bolt up perfectly, but a new braket needs to be made on the shock to allow for the little support braket. Using the handbrake cables from the Prelude looks to be the best option as opposed to modifying the handbrake mech on the caliper. The Prelude handbrake bolts in, but if you would prefer to keep with the 2nd gen one the Prelude cables will hook up to that fine. I have yet to plan out a route for the handbrake cables, but my initial plan is to run them through the cabin and then exit at the back of the rear seats next to where the fuel line(s) come out. There is already a hole on one side with a grommet in it, and putting one through the steel sheet on the other side is no problem. I should imagine the handbrake cables will be too long, though it doesnt look to be by much. Putting an extra curve or 2 to take up the slack should work out fine but i havent tried that yet.

Anyway that is the plan to date and i am intend to have it all mocked up in my parts car and ready to swap into my good car by the weekend

By John S. (64.12.116.199) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 09:18 am:

On the 1st Gen axle stub you have to turn down the area of the outer bearing, and build up the area of the inner bearing. If you were going to attempt to approach a 2nd Gen conversion in the same way, you would need to build up the area of the outer bearing, and turn down the area of the inner bearing...the exact opposite of the first Gen. You could go about it this way but it will require more custom machining. When I had the rear axles modified for my 1st Gen it cost me 40.00 to have the axles weldbuilt up in the area of the inner bearing, then another 75.00 to have both inner and outer areas turned down to fit the 2nd gen rear drum. Then another 45.00 to have proper spacers made to move the drum out to where it would rotate smoothly. That is 160.00US for the machining. But going about it this way is bulletproof, with no risk of snapping an axle by trying to use a sleeve pressed on over a turned down axle. Going that route probably costs as much or more for machining anyway.
Getting back to the Disc brake conversion on a 2nd Gen. I first approached the problem using the 84-87 Prelude caliper bracket, but decided there is just not enough meat to cut all four holes for it to bolt up. Remember it fits the first gen bolt holes, not the second Gen bolt holes.
So then I spent some spare time modifying one of the Prelude brackets with bondo and shapeing it to be used as a pattern to maybe have a foundry cast them in Aluminium, which could be done that way also, and would I'm sure be safe enough strength wise, but they would cost over 100.00US apiece buy the time you had them cast and all the necessary machining done. How much over 100.00 I don't know because I decided it was too much money to go that route.
That was about the time I discovered using the Acura suspension pieces which can be made to work using a little creative, but home capable machine work. That was the key, I'm trying to keep the cost down and build it better at the same time. Going the way I first described earlier is plenty strong, probably stronger that factory, and still will end up cheaper if you do the mods to the brackets yourself unstead of farming it out.
You have to remember that using the Prelude brackets on the First Gen. modification only effects the brackets themselves as the axlestubs on first gen are integral pieces. The axlestubs on the 2nd Gen Civics and Preludes(almost identical) are bolted onto the swingarm assemblies using very strong bolts. This is not an area to be guessing that something "might" work as failure could get you dead or at the very least do serious damage to your car if not total it. The down side to my approach is added unsprung weight, which is a reality no matter which way you go on a rear disc conversion, and is also one of the reasons the "racer" boys among us stay with blueprinted versions of the origional rear drum assemblies, that and in some cases "class" rules that they must follow.
The jest of this entire tirade is I wouldn't risk modifying those brackets themselves to work. It's not that I didn't think about going that way, I just decided it was too risky from a safety standpoint, and there again I always strive to make any of my mods worthy of Honda .

By Colza (Colza) (219.88.31.140) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 10:01 pm:

I just found that out too =P

So swapping the prelude rear disks to an EB requires exactly the same stub axle modification as swapping the EN drums to an EB. But you dont have to change any bolts.

Swapping the prelude disks to the EN you can use the axle as it is but you have to jiggle some bolt holes.

I will have a look at the handbrake cable mech tomorrow!

By Colza (Colza) (219.88.31.140) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 09:58 pm:

Make up funky hand brake cable mechanism, sort out a brake line. Enlarge 2 holes by 2mm, build up some weld on one side and drill 2 new holes.

Shouldnt be any problem putting a bolt hole through the welded section because the other 3 bolts will be quite sufficient i would think. The caliper bracket thing doesnt support any wheel, it just stops the caliper spinning round when you clamp the brakes on...

By John S. (67.65.34.15) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 09:43 pm:

The caliper brackets from the 84-87 prelude bolt to the 1st Gen(EB) stubaxle, but not the 2nd Gen(EN). Hell, they wouldn't make it that easy.

By Colza (Colza) (219.88.31.140) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 09:20 pm:

Interesting. We had a power cut this morning, so i didnt get a chance to check the board before i went off to the wreckers. What I have now is rear hub from an '85 (i think) prelude. It looks like honda decided to build a rear disk setup as easilly as possible, by converting a rear drum setup. The spindle appears to be the same as you said (will check properly later) and as far as i can see, the only thing stopping me bolting the whole lot straight up is the handbrake cable coming from the wrong side, and the bolt spacing in the centre being slightly different.

Anyway, i dont have time to throroughly play with it now, but i will try and get some pics and a more detailed explanation of what i will attempt to do later

Why did you not just use the whole prelude setup?

By John S. (66.142.40.138) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 11:17 pm:

I am with you on any kind of cheap part that is not up to "at the very least" factory specs. There are wheel spacers on the market that are well engineered and safe...if installed properly... but they are expensive.
We are talking about things that need to be locktited, or safetywired, proper grade strength bolts used, and torqued to proper specs, etc. whatever the case may be.
We owe it to ourselves and everyone else on the road to use good judgement about this kind of stuff.

By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.190.188) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 10:52 pm:

ahh okay.. it was a mistake of vocabulary my thoughts on wheel spacer lugnut adapters still stands

-Richard

By John S. (66.142.40.138) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 10:45 pm:

Richard,
I'm not referring to wheel adapters like you use to space out the wheels and tires. I'm talking about an actual Acura factory part of the Integra rear suspension which bolts to the Integra rear swingarm assembly and the caliper brackets bolt to them. On the 2nd Gen Integra the axlestubs seem to be pressfit from behind on this swingarm assembly. The piece I am referring to bolts to the front(outer) side of the swingarm, and the hole spacing just happens to be the same as on the 2nd Gen axle stubs...I think Honda likes to recycle much of its tooling jigs, but they seem to skip a model Generation or two when they do it. Trust me I would never "shadetree engineer" anything less than to Honda standards...not intentionally anyway.

By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.190.188) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 10:28 pm:

I'd steer clear of wheel adapters if you can.. they're seriously bad mojo.. one solid bump in the highway can send your wheel the other direction. I've had firends show me pics of the damage.. it would cost less to buy and make the proper hubs than to repair the damage of a wheel breaking off.. some testimonial quotes from buddies in the hot rod scene:

"I once knew a guy he bought adapters and put them on his car and it killed him a couple of months later when the adapters broke and made his car go end over end."

"My friend had adaptors on a Porsche powered VW. He went off the hiway onto the off ramp at a high rate of speed and the front adaptors broke. He broke his back when the car landed on him and tore his scalp off going through the chain link fence. But he lived."

sssshivVverrr.. maybe wheel adapters have come a long way since 4 years ago, but I doubt it..

-Rich

By John S. (66.142.40.138) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 09:24 pm:

OK so now that you have cleared up my confusion, I am slowly working out the 2nd Gen rear disc conversion.
I don't currently have the means to scan photos and post them, and trying to explain it in words will probably get confusing, but I will at least try to get you started. I'm using the adapters from the 2nd Gen Acura integra reversed left side to right side. They need some mods to work, but at least you can go hunting the parts. They bolt up to the four bolts the the Civic has holding the axle stubs on the rear control arm assemblies, but you will need longer bolts and they need to be at least grade 8 bolts, I don't know for sure what Honda uses, but I'll bet they are that strong. You will also need the sheet metal pieces that work as lock tabs to keep the bolts from loosening...new ones everytime you disassemble the pieces...this is a safety factor. The rotors I am using are the ones from the 84-87 Prelude rear disc assem. which fit right on the axles on the 2nd Gen Civic. Yeah, the rotor is an integral part of hub/bearing assembly, which is not as good as if you could change rotors without changing hubs, but, they do fit right on the axles...so... You also need the caliper adapters from the Acura which bolt up to the adapters, and the matching calipers. The big hole in the center of the adapter must be machined, i.e. reamed out large enough for the hub rotor assembly to bottom on the axle. the rest is basically fabbing shims to set spacing to center the rotors in the calipers. Oh, and you will also want to grab the dust shields from the Integra too, though they also will need mods to work, but it is better than starting from scratch. Are you confused yet? Its hard for me to put it into words, and I've actually trial fit the pieces together, so I know it will work...and it is all Honda parts.
Stay tuned for more soul searching, head scratching, and expletive deleting.

By Colza (Colza) (219.88.31.167) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 01:15 am:

I cant think of any other type of civic with EN associated with it... =P yeah 2nd gen civic.

By John S. (69.148.244.90) on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 09:40 pm:

Are you refering to the 2nd Gen when you say EN?

By Colza (Colza) (219.88.30.82) on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 09:28 pm:

Does anyone know how the rear disk swap differs on an EN as opposed to an EB? I think i will just start buying parts and see how it all works out, but it would be nice to have some advance warning on any difficulties...