John, I do everything in house. I balanced Don's engine to less than .10 grams if I remember correctly. I sent him pics while it was still on the machine.

Also, I think the whole short block assembly was around $60 or less to ship from Georgia to Don's shop..... and he is on the other side of the world.

By John S. (66.142.46.106) on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 07:15 pm:

I don't know how many of you will find this interesting, but it is a pretty good tech article dealing with a lot of the issues involved in building a motor such as Codys...just found it today, but I don't know how to add a link so...
www.speedomotive.com/Building%20Tips.htm

By Don (199.2.139.153) on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 08:34 am:

I think they are except for the one missing bolt.

By John S. (68.93.3.110) on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 12:31 am:

Question is are they interchangeable on any block. I didn't think they were, but then it has been a long time since I compared them.

By Don (199.2.139.193) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 06:16 pm:

The oil pans have one less bolt, thats all I can tell the difference is.

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (4.34.195.46) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 05:37 pm:

i shouldn't have to worry cause i have a 74. and what is the difference? size or bolt pattern. because i have one of those huge (i think it's) 6 quart oil pans. i think my motor takes somewhere aronud 9 quarts of oil. wilth the big pan, oil cooler and remote oil filter. thats alot of oil. next on the list oil thermostat.

By John S. (68.93.3.110) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 03:55 pm:

Oh, I almost forgot about this. Here is a formula for calculating piston speed lifted from this months(January) Hot Rod magazine:
"Multiply the stroke by peak engine speed, then divide that figure by six to convert piston speed to feet per minute."

By John S. (68.93.3.110) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 03:36 pm:

Cody, EB1's along with some early EB2's use a different oil pan than the later models so be sure you get that with the deal.(I'm not sure when the changeover was, I think maybe '76)...I know this because my EB3 1335 stroker motor was built from an early shortblock and uses the early pan...never a dull moment with Honda...

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (4.34.195.46) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 10:44 am:

i got it all covered. i found a rebuilt engine that i will proabably go get this weekend. $300 complete short block, EB1. and as for an engine builder, i think i can handle it(with my fathers help). my dad has been building race engines for over 20 years. and he has more than enough tools to do the job. and the place where i work there is a guy namned Guan The (i think Frito might know him), he builds honda motors for scca world challenge, VARA, and mexicali races. so i think i have it covered.

By John S. (66.136.149.110) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 07:01 am:

OK you guys,
That you CAN use aftermarket bearings is most interesting. I've passed up several sets on eBay just because A/T and Jackson in the past always said use Honda bearings, which are now approaching the stratosphere in price. I am glad to here it. I think the key point is the engine must be assembled by someone who both knows what they are doing and cares that they build these little devils right i.e. taking the time to measure everything more than once if necessary . I hate to think about shipping the engines back and forth across the country, but that just may be the only way to be sure the work is done the way we want it to be done.
Bryan, do you know of someone in your area that balances the rotating assemblies for you, or do you also do that part of the work yourself?
Cody, if you haven't already realized this, you need to chase down at least one spare block and at least one spare crank,that would have saved you some money this time around. So far...in California they are still around. I would look for a EM1 crank, maybe even a couple of them cause now you can get them pretty cheap.It will probably be harder to chase down an EB block in Calif. though. I wouldn't wait too long , 1st and 2nd Gen stuff is already virtually gone in my area(Midwest) and I'd say for all practical purposes the window for the entire country won't be much more than a couple of years. I can't stress this too much to any of you guys...we all have to start stockpiling key serviceable used parts BEFORE they are GONE.You can't wait until you need something to hunt it down, not anymore. That is if you are sincere about keeping your cars going for another ten or even twenty years. Think about the fun it will be to pull a cherry Civic out on a nice day twenty years from now and go for a cruise. Believe me if they turn heads now they will really turn heads then.

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (4.34.195.46) on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 11:06 am:

dont worry, i got my crank ground .20 under and got it renitrited, i think it was 4 thou. i got my block re-sleeved with Darton sleeves. the crank and block work alone cost me $980us. i just got it back a week ago.

By Bryan (66.32.248.68) on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 09:53 am:

Don, sorry about not getting back to you on the valve springs......getting married and all took all my free time before the honeymoon.

How high are you reving the engine to?

By Don (199.2.139.163) on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 06:42 am:

I have an old Mugen catalog guess what they didn't use honda bearings They used c77 in honda sizes (NLA). Thats why I asked Bryan to see If I could use the C77 bearings without too much clearance and in my case it worked.

By Bryan (66.32.248.68) on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 05:49 am:

I used Clevite bearing when I built Don's engine and had good clearances. I use a dial bore guage to check. I you resize the rods with ARP bolts, then the honda codes for the rods are not usable anyway. I usually resize the large end to the high side of the specs anyway for performance engines.

Don's block had the housing bore for the mains about in the middle of the spec. I made it "easy" to get good results. Honda cranks are hardened using a tuftride process. If you grind the crank, then get it rehardened. It is more expensive to do this than finding a replace STD crank. They are still out there for you to find. Get one.......it will save you lots of problems.

By John S. (68.93.178.2) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 08:48 pm:

Cody,
Did they turn down your crank? if they did it MUST be rehardened, and don't let them tell you otherwise. Honda cranks are very soft metal wise and are all surface hardened from the factory. Honda claims if you can snag your fingernail running across the journal then the crank is junk(through the treated surface). Unless you already have a bunch of money tied up in custom crankwork on that crank you'll be better off getting a good used crank(1500 if thats's what you want), then using Honda coded bearings. I'm not kidding here...you will be wasting your money to build that motor if you don't do the bottom end right...as much for any stock Honda motor, even more so for the monster that you are building.

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.207.103) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 03:36 pm:

the pics are in a thread called "stroker motor" dated 8/20.

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.207.103) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 03:28 pm:

your right, there are pics of my piston/ rod on this site! i am getting new Ross racing pistons, and i am geting my rods bushed so i wont have that problem anymore. and for the bearings clevitte makes aftermarket bearings for all honda motors (73-present). the machine shop just ordered .20 under bearings for me but i am not to sure if they will fit. i will have to check fit and see what my clearances are.

By Bryan (66.245.27.54) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 05:53 am:

John, You have some good points for his use. The block cannot be relieved however, because the gasket is round and already at the edge of the bore. I saw I pic somewhere on this board of the piston and rod he is runnning. I don't believe there is room for anything longer. That thing already probably has an unbelievbly high compression ratio.

Cody, If you were listening before.......It is NOT because you were running high rpms. It is because steel pins will NOT run in steel rods. That is why all floating rods are bushed.

Spiro-locks work great in high rpm engines provided things are set up correctly. Usually they have 2 in each side. The current trend is to go with round wire locks like motorcycle engines have had for years. Go figure it took this long for them to "copy" the japanese. They are very reliable for long term use. The end of the pin is chamfered and if it tries to "push" out, it just locks the lock in harder.

By John S. (68.94.114.236) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 09:39 pm:

Say Cody,
You just stated that you are going to the machine shop to get your bearings. Are they getting you Honda bearings and following the codes for rebuild? I don't know, and would be interested to hear from others if they have had any luck with aftermarket ones...especially considering the stresses you will be putting them to...just wondering...plus the term ASAP is a little disconcerting considering what you will probably be asking your motor to do.

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.207.103) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 09:03 pm:

i dont think my motor when it was built was supposed to go 9k. and i had no idea what i had for a bottom end so i just reved it.

By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.190.188) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 07:42 pm:

Aren't sprial locks crap for high revving motors? I've seen people using those on 'sickle motors, and they just pop out and screw up everything.

-Richard

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.207.103) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 06:27 pm:

the arias pistons i have came with spiral locks to keep the wrist pins in but the one that broke spread the spiral lock and pushed through. i would like to get "second hand" rods but where can i get some? and i think the reason the wrist pins did what they did was because i was spinning it to 9k.

By Pfergy (Pfergy) (144.139.109.71) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 05:31 pm:

Thread seems to have drifted a bit!!
First question why new rods!
Second question What was retaining the Wrist pins ( i call them Gudgeons) as you call them. Stock to my belief its the little end,I maybe wrong but all the engines ive had apart that has been the case.From what you have said wrist pin has drifted to one side and broken the rings, lends me to believe that you have no retaining circlips or other mech in pistons etc so it apears to be the normal retaining method of the little end holding the wrist pin. So no siezing of wrist pins.
Why has this Happened! Got the little fellow a bit too hot ?? Over reved it maybe, many and variable reasons.
If my assumtions are wrong and and you have floating wrist pins in the setup, Bryan is write get some rods bushed with some other medium.
I could only suggest you hunt down some second hand rods at this stage if budget is tight.
I know where you are coming from and if you are happy with the 1500 and it has stayed together for 12 years, go for it. Its yours to do as you please with.
My only suggestion is, when back together you may want to drop the the rev range a bit, as its probably, if not has been the main cause of your problem. I may be wrong again, but common sence tells me 9K will achieve nothing but more grief, as the benefit from 7k - 9k would be Jack •••• apart from boosting ego's and sounding good.My reason for believing this is, not many cams that develope real horse power in the 7k - 9k range for these little toys.
Someone may have some new standard rods over there they may wish to sell you, no one has stepped up to the plate with any, so its doubtful.
Best of luck
Fergy

By John S. (68.94.114.236) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 04:40 pm:

Bryan,
I know that anytime you add metal to either the top of the piston, or to the inside of the combustion chamber, as well as moving the relationship of the piston at TDC or milling the head,decking the block etc. all effect Comp ratio. But as Cody is so adament to staying with the 1500 crank, which we are all in agreement if an iffy proposition, I figured the best way to deal with the problem is fit the longest rod possible in relation to a redesign of the piston to allow it. So to move the piston higher to allow a longer rod means dishing and notching the pistons for clearance as well as to help counter the increased comp. Maybe there is room, maybe not, he would have to make some mockups to find out.Don't forget he is currently using an EB2 head so to switch to an EB3 will drop comp. a full point by itself. The advantage of quench is it reduces the area for hotspots to be created abet at a rise of comp ratio. The key to going in this direction lies in the design of the piston. I would also suggest relieving the block in the valve pocket areas to reduce shrouding and this would also lower the comp ratio slightly. Still, no matter what he does, using the 1500 crank, though a dream of maybe all of us(more displacement), is as we have all stated on the ragged edge. I hope he can pull it off. A 1450cc EB would be great, but as you stated it would be easier and safer to pull it back some.

By Adrian (Evocivic) (203.42.97.141) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 03:41 pm:

Actually drifting in gymkhanas (motorkhanas over here) is usually the slow way around (unless you are a VERY good driver). Handbrake turns however are absolutely essential. Your average test is around 30 seconds and there are only a few tests where you will get into second gear. We've been running a bog standard 77 hondamatic Civic for 2 years now and have done surprisingly well ... horsepower isn't everything, especially on dirt!
... getting a little off topic ...

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.207.103) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 03:07 pm:

i was talking to the guy who i bought the car from and he said it was a real small auto cross and usually mini coopers dominated. until my car came. and it pissed alot of people off. i dont remember the actual name but it sounded like gymkana. i know what the actual gymkana is. its like johnathan said drifting mixed with autocross.

By Don (199.2.139.148) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 11:48 am:

Gymkhana is another name for autocross except its usually shorter time wise.

By Jonathan (68.193.6.173) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 10:30 am:

Oops, clicked post too early. From what I remember, Gymkhana is similar to autocrossing, and I think it's a sport originally used for horses, but evolved into an obsticle course for cars. It's kinda like drifting mixed with autocross. That make sense?

By Jonathan (68.193.6.173) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 10:26 am:

Cody, I think it's spelled Gymkhana...

http://www.calgymkhana.com/

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (4.34.195.46) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 10:10 am:

the guy who built the engine before me put alot of effort in this engine. this might sound funny but he put alot of time into the head and block but he cut many corners on little things like the pin/ rod. i was trying to get a rod made but it would be to much money. and i dont have an EN or even a stock EB crank i can put in it. but no worries. i'm going to my machine shop to pick up bearings and get some more stuff to try and finish asap. thanks for all your help, everyone. oh and does any one know what "jim kana" is i was told it is a type of solo racing?

By Bryan (66.245.21.20) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 05:27 am:

John, All that would do is raise the compression ratio.......and you want to stay at about 8.5:1 for a turbo engine.

Cody, the reason they seized is because they were floated in the rod by just honing the small end out and running steel on steel......it does NOT work. Metals have to be dissimilar in order to work together. If you have to buy new stuff, then just go with a 1200 or 1300 crank and the rod ratio will be so much better and you will be able to run higher boost levels safer. You will get less side loading on the cyl. walls and less flex from them also. If you are going to have rods made, then get them made 5.200 and have someone calculate the correct compression height for the piston.

If you have a 1300 crank, I would be happy to sell you my stuff, and have new stuff made. My project will not be running soon. The only thing, My pistons are for a 74mm bore.

By John S. (66.136.148.42) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 07:41 pm:

Cody I must to admit I am no pro at this, but it still seems to me that with the deeper combustion chambers in the EB3 head it might be safe to design your pistons to move further into the head and gain some leeway on the placement of your wristpins, there might be a much as 2mm if you ringcut the combustion chambers and then feather it out. I'm also considering using the Mugan race head design as a template to have metal welded into the comb chamber (reshaping it), to add quench to the head on my next EB rebuild. They are doing this on the newer Honda four valve heads...creating a cloverleaf shape...with good results. I'm thinking Mugen did it for more reasons than just raising compression ratios...like maybe the reduced tendency to detonate.
By the way, earlier I was not suggesting Cryo treatments, but application of some of the ceramic coatings(can be done at home if you have an old junk electric oven), which also help to reduce the tendency to detonate.

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.205.13) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 03:50 pm:

the wrist pins seized. i think it was supposed to be a full floating pin, but the rod was not bushed. when i took the engine apart 2 pins were siezed in the rods, 1 was still full floated, and the last was siezed and pushed it's way through the spiral lock and was out the side of the piston (with bent and broken oil rings).

By Bryan (66.245.3.177) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 03:39 pm:

Hello everyone........sorry to be so long iin a response, but I've been on my honeymoon.

I have made more power with a turbo engine by taking stroke out of it. I kept the same length rods and shortened the stroke by 1/4". It made 200 more HP with the same cam, turbo, and heads.

This engine already made 1400 HP. It made over 1600 after. It was my idea and the cust. was not so certain it would work. (bigger is better is not always the case). I had to convince him and promise to put it back no charge if it didn't work.

Regardless, I think the rods I had made are 5.200 length.......or 5.250....I can't remember. I am using a 1300 crank and the pistons use buttons to hold the wrist pins in place. This has to be as teh pins are all the way up to the top of the oil ring groove. I am even using later model (I think from a 1300) thinner rings to make more room, but it also makes the rings lighter and less drag.

Cody, What do you mean the pins stuck? Did you have the rods floated?

By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.190.188) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 07:52 pm:

wow.. that's neat.. i never put it together that using a turbo would change your effective cr.. I found this neat little tool after some googling..
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/comprAdvHD.htm
wonder if it's that easy ;)

-Richard

By Don (199.2.139.206) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 06:00 pm:

Cody how come you keep talking about your father... grandfather Not belittle you but Dynamic compression is a basic so if you dont understand somthing simple why do you go spouting like its you that has done these things. I have know doubt that you may be in contact with many people but christ its not going to change physics. As for your rod question all the places you mentioned are hi dollar places so maybe they will let you sweep floors for the extra money to buy Crower rods ....being your good buddies and all. If not then just prep the stock ones and pray allot at 9K

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.208.187) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 02:43 pm:

i am directly related to dick guldstrand. he is my grandfathers brother. my great uncle. and he is still alive, and very active. and yes i know some really amazing fabricators and engine builders. but none can help. is anyone into midget racing, and has ever heard of a guy named Andy Bondio.

By John S. (69.148.244.60) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 02:11 pm:

Oh yeah,
Doesn't Carillo make custom billet rods, also a place named Paeco down in the Carolinas claim to be able to make anything, however the few times I queried them regarding anything it seemed high as hell, and I have never actually seen any of their work so I don't know poop about their quality, only their claims.

By John S. (69.148.244.60) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 02:05 pm:

You know, I wondered if you (Cody) might be in some way related to the I believe Late Dick Guldstrand. I must say that probably puts you in touch with some of the best machine shops around and as Don recently stated that is were a motor is either made or... I've always said the machinist is either your best friend or worst enemy, so I can see how these connections would help you to make a 1500 crank work...never heard of one lasting until now...still, you are in uncharted waters and one must never forget that "their be monsters out there".

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.208.187) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 02:01 pm:

i am asking questions on where to buy parts not what to buy parts. i think i know what to buy. all you guys can tell me what i am doing wrong but still no help from anyone. you guys dont even know me, so why do you judge me. i have been going to races since i was two weeks old. i have been to everything from IMSA endurance races, solo 2 national championships, and just recently world challenge. my father has been crew cheif for drivers like Steve Millen, John Morton, Bobby Caradine, Tommy Kendal and even "Little Al". so why do you judge me???

By Don (199.2.139.172) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 01:04 pm:

Nope I think its cool that he knows all those people but knowlege isn't passed by genetics you have to pay attention and study.

By Kyle Thomson (24.83.12.187) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 12:46 pm:

you should stop, cause with all that bragging, your still on here asking questions now aren't you, so how does all that help you?

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.208.187) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 12:44 pm:

and for the tach, i dont think auto meter is cheap

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.208.187) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 12:39 pm:

world challange, touring. at round ten (laguna Seca) we won the hard charger award. and in the next article of autoworld magazine (a korean auto magazine in los angeles) we have the cover story. the team was KMC Motorsports/ TRS Group 4 and the driver was Kenny Yim. And the lats name "Guldstrand" dosnt mean anything to you? www.corvettethunder.com (Dick G. is my uncle). i can keep going but i will stop.

By Don (199.2.139.190) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 11:32 am:

With the 1500 Crank I dont think he can go to a longer rod. He said his pin was in the middle of the oil ring now. This is why John and I recomened the eb crank. Like I said before Bryan had long rods and pistions made up for his EB with a 1.3 crank and he knows turbos and as far as I know he will talk to anybody on this board except JMS

By Don (199.2.139.190) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 11:27 am:

Some realy cheap tachs can be off as much as 2K in the upper ranges so that could explain it.

By Jacob (24.21.158.8) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 11:11 am:

People set the rev-limit so low because once you drop a larger stroke crankshaft in the block, the engines have a terrible rod/stroke ratio, which leads to enormous side loading. No offense, but I call B.S. on you having a 1500 cranked EB that will spin to 9K. According to all the info on this board, the highest you can spin a EB with a 1300 crank (with any sort of reliability) is 8K. I think it's really sweet that you have a 1500 crank in an EB.

I think the only logical thing for you to do is get longer rods with custom high-pin pistons and then tune and drive the crap out of it. Just some of your info seems to contradict a lot of people with a lot more experience.

By Don (199.2.139.152) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 10:32 am:

Cody If you have large ammounts of experience with race engines it seems like you would understand what dynamic compression is??? Reading tuner mags and oogling the bikini girls is cool but doesnt count as racing experience (lol)

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (4.34.195.46) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 10:29 am:

these motors should rev pretty high. i dont know why everyone sets the rev limit so low.

By Don (199.2.139.157) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 09:55 am:

Depends more on quality machine work than allot of other stuff you can put good parts in a engine and have a pile if the engines put together wrong. My engine is a 1.2 Work done by Bryan Maloof I was watching the in car video last night .... I was hitting 7K (rev limit set at 6600) on down shifts I trust it. Next year its in a different class I'm going to set the limiter at 7200 and hope for the best it will most likely last the season before I send it back to be freshened. If it doesnt last its my own dang fault

By John S. (64.12.116.199) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 09:34 am:

Dave,
"safe" is a relative term, It really depends on how long you want your motor to last and how you decide to drive it. Personally, for driving on the street in a sane manner I might very seldom see 6500RPM, the motors will spin higher but I want them to last. Most of the time 3000 or 3500 is a normal shift point 4000 or 4500 if I'm really in a hurry, but this is for street. The "racers" amoung us will tell you a somewhat different story.
I like to liken it to a quote I remember from the "Bladerunner" movie, "The light that burns twice as bright burns out twice as fast", in paraphrase...and all things being equal is applicable to our little Hondas too.

By Dave (209.226.248.64) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 08:49 am:

Just a question. My engine has been balanced and the rods have been shot peened. The pistons are by Venolia. What do you think is a safe top RPM for my engine? Thanks

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.206.58) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 08:37 pm:

i really look up to most of the "Gurus" on this board. i have a big backround and a lot of experience in racing, engine building, and suspension. and some of the information i get from the board does not make sense to me at all. i dont know where this thread went to but i was asking about rods. not if i should keep my 1500 bottom end, if i'm spinning my motor to high or is a turbo a good or bad idea. i just want to know about rods. thats all

By Don (199.2.139.180) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 06:41 pm:

Don't beat him up too bad in reality its the car owner who has to live with the consequences good or bad so he has to make the final call.
I meant what I said about geting into the 13's hope theres a 12.99 in your future.

By Kyle Thomson (24.83.12.187) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 05:45 pm:

If you know all the info thier telling you, then why do you still ask questions about it? they told you the compression you are running, and the rpms your turning while using a turbo are not a good combo, they suggested you revert back to a 1200 crankshaft. If you know this already, then whats your question?

By Kyle Thomson (24.83.12.187) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 05:42 pm:

I'm going to have to agree with Colza on this one. I've been activly following this thread as it has shown a LOT of good info. I didn't know Don or John S. had this much knowledge of the turbo side of our hobby, I've been very impressed

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (24.127.102.11) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 05:41 pm:

all the stuff they are saying i should get, i already have. so what is the helpful advice??

By Colza (Colza) (219.88.30.237) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 04:40 pm:

I havent read this thread before, and as a sideline observer it seems you have lots of very helpful advice being offered...

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.208.184) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 01:55 pm:

which magazine was i in? i know crower makes rods, they want $650 for them. thats a litle to much fo me. do you know anywhere else where i can get rods for my car? and what advice did you guys give me.

By Don (199.2.139.157) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:56 pm:

The magazine articles had 16s printed. Why ask for advice? Sounds like you wount take it even when its offered. Best wishes getting into the 13's

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.208.184) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:40 pm:

that engine has not always been turned 8500rpm. the guy that i bought the car from had the redline set at 6800rpm. i put an electric fuel pump and a new bigger carb and that engine wanted to spin 9000rpm. and where did you get this idea that i run in the 16s. i said that it should run low 13s. and where do you get this idea that turbo motors dont like high rpm's. i have seen many turbo motors spin high rpm's maybe not as high as some heavily modified N/A motors but they still love to rev. and i'm not saying my motor ran 50,000 miles on crazy boost, i'm saying it was reliable on 7psi (thats where i always had it)and when you got in the boost it was wicked. yes my goal is to be as good or better as angus but right now i dont have the time or the money to go nuts.

By John S. (65.70.157.5) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 09:40 am:

Jeeze, I had no idea you were spinning the engine to 8500-9000RPM. Unless you've got one hell of a trustworthy wastegate that is insane with a turbo on these motors. By the way I do remenber a Honda mechanic in Penn. who had done two 1500 crank conversions (both ultimately failed buy the way) that his cranking pressure was over 230PSI. You'll never convince me that you've have had any real longevity spinning that motor that high turboed, even at a low 5-6lbs boost at which levels why bother with the turbo anyway. Don is right, turbo motors produce incredible anounts of low-mid range torque. For that reason trying to keep a 1500 stroker turbo'd AND together is going to be an expensive task, theres too much stress factor in every direction you turn..

By Don (199.2.139.225) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 06:29 am:

Cody I remember that you thought at one time that your car was the Hotrod project car? The problem with turbos is like every thing else there are varying levels. That car with a turbo ran a mid sixteen second quarter. Not good
As an example Todds autocross car runs low 14's no turbo and no fancy high dollar stuff.
Bottom line is if you have a turbo and naturaly aspirated cars of the same model are even close to kicking your but somethings wrong.
I thought you were going to get serious with your turbo setup and run numbers like Angus or faster. If your just going to keep everything the same then by all means just reasemble the engine. Most serious turbo engines run low rpms because the turbo is pumping in so much boost that if they were crazy enough to spin the thing to 9K it would come appart. There are specail turbo grind cams that dont have any overlap that help build pressure in the cylinder they dont like rpm either. They dont need to spin the engine that high to make lots of HP

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.209.207) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 07:53 pm:

i already have an EB3 head and had custom arias pistons. that engine has been in the car for over 12 years. it probably sat for 7 of those years. but i have never had any engine problems except for the wrist pins. the engine ran strong to 8500-9000 rpm. and for the wrist pin problem it was more of my fault then the cars fault. the only problems it really has was exhaust hangers and CV's. other then that no problems.

By John S. (68.93.177.243) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 07:04 pm:

You know Don, I was about to make the same suggestion, I think the 1500 crank and a Turbo is too much to ask of these blocks, and the reality is with the turbo dialed in even at 1238cc it can still build serious power, and be reliable.

By Don (199.2.139.178) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 07:00 pm:

Angus cant help he is not running a 1500 crank.
You are taking an long stoke engine and making the problem even worse by lenthening the stroke. Even with good parts the engine will be on the ragged edge. I have a computer program that will calculate the forces and you will be amazed at what a few changes can do or hurt. I would go the other way if I was you. I would run a 1200 crank with good rods and quality pistons. The turbo will push in the mix you just need somthing to rotate without trying to take out the sides of the block. Angus bought his car mostly done...Talk to Bryan Maloof he is a smart feller and has done race engines (turbos) for a long time.

By John S. (68.93.177.243) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 06:55 pm:

My next question is how long did the 1500 crank conversion last, everytime i've heard of anyone trying it they always seemed to have one problem or another. 1300 rods are 3mm shorter than 1200 rods, I don't know how long the 1500 rods are compared to the 1200 rods. An EB3 head would give you some extra breathing room as far as compression ratio is concerned, and you'd have the better flow to boot. With the deeper combustion chamber on the EB3 head you might be able to push the piston higher into the head and with custom pistons and some some creative valve notching still keep your overall ratio where you want it. You are definitely pushing the limits of the 1200 block though, with all of these mods, and the Turbo to boot.

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.208.101) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 06:41 pm:

a stock EB2 rod. 5.065 center to center

By John S. (68.93.177.243) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 06:31 pm:

The first question is what rods do you have in the motor now?

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.208.101) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 06:18 pm:

how long should my rods be?

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.208.101) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 06:01 pm:

i cant put a longer rod in it because my wrist pin sits almost half way through the oil rings. and if i got a longer rod i would have to make the wrist pin sit almost at the top of the piston. and when i got my block sleeved he had to deck-it a litte so that would make it worse. any other ideas. i'm not trying to fight i just need to get this done. and i dont want to cut corners on my motor. where is Angus anyway?

By Don (199.2.139.200) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 05:02 pm:

Also your dynamic compression ratio is way way off with a turbo your going to pump in alot of fuel and air so your dynamic compression ratio is going to be way up there. Its NOT going to be less than static that for sure unless a few of the feed hoses are left off

By Username (67.180.167.118) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 04:30 pm:

Just a note. Stress relieving will not make anything "stronger", but it will make them cycle longer. Subtle difference.

By Don (199.2.139.234) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 04:00 pm:

The problem with the wrist pin is most likely caused by the long stroke. Short rods and long stokes dont work too well. I would re design the rod lenght with custom rods. Use as long a rod as I could. This will reduce the extreem side loading and make everything more reliable. Your block will take a beating to it may not fail but the wear rate in the form of metal loss and out of round bores will not be good with a short rod

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.208.101) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 03:42 pm:

i have a 1500cc(86mm stroke) crank now. i had forged pisond before and i had problems with the wrist pin sticking in the rod. that the main reason my engine failed. if i use my stock rods i would need to get the "small end" bushed, the "big end" resized and get them all magnafluxed and re nitrited. i would like to run 0.7 bar. as for compression i would like to have 8.5:1 static and 8.2:1 dynamic. as for cryogenic treating it would be a possibility. does any one have new rods they want to sell?

By John S. (66.142.40.138) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 08:31 pm:

Are you sure you need better than factory rods? Both Jackson Racing and A/T Engineering always said the factory rods were strong enough, it was the bolts that were weak. I would think if you stress relieve them and balance the piston/rod assemblies they would be fine. I would think about forged pistons though, and if you don't have a 1300 crank already I would sure as hell source one of them too. What kind of boost are you shooting for, and what is your aim as far as a final C/R? It might also be worth looking at some of the "spaceage" thermo coatings as many of them can be applied by an enterpriseing home builder. If properly applied they work. Controlling heat and detonation are the keys to a turbo motor that will survive...the big three are Compression Ratio-boost level-control of timing. However it all depends on how much peak power you are shooting for. We probably need to pick Angus's brain as he seems to be the master of this tech.

By Don (199.2.139.181) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 04:28 pm:

Crower makes 1200 rods they are heavy but strong. Since the RPMs will be lower on a turbo engine it would probably be perfect. If you have not ordered pistions I would try to order a long rod and order the pistons to match.

By cody_guldstrand@hotmail.com (Turbo74) (66.245.205.183) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 03:44 pm:

i need some connecting rods for my EB2 turbo motor. i just got a quote from my machine shop and the want $869.00us for a set of crower rods and i have to wait 6-8 weeks for delivery. does anyone know where i can get a set of new or aftermarket rods for an EB2. i need them asap. any help would be great.