Yep, I did know the very early ones had drums at the front, though I've never seen one "in the flesh", only pictures in the workshop manual. I hope their adjustment mechanism was better than that on the Mini !
One other thing about the rear adjustment is you need to be careful with the handbrake. If you keep winding up the handbrake to keep it tight it means the shoe adjustment is probably out. You might make the handbrake tighter but you won't make the back brakes work much better. You should back off the handbrake adjuster a bit, adjust the shoes, then tighten the handbrake again.

By John S. (68.93.178.2) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 08:32 pm:

Hi guys,
Adrian (as usual) is right again. As long as the 1stGen adjusters are in good working order...you must grease them once in a while...they do work good. My only complaint with them has been it seemed like I would need to adjust them fairly often. This is as Adrian well knows one good reason to move to 2nd Gen brakes, but it is not necessary to change them over at all...just keep them in good working order and properly adjusted. For all you guys like me who live in the USA where we are largely still on the antiquated and less accurate "inch/foot" system, Snap-on makes a trick little Honda adjustment tool for the 1stGens if you can still find one. It is a flex socket that fits a 1/4" drive ratchet,and you use it with a short extension.
Adrian, you probably know this already but the very early Civics had 4-wheel drum brakes...that is why when Honda installed installed dics up front the front track was increased...(also why the rear track is narrower than the front).
Jonathan...1st dibs on the grill and headlight doors and the fuel pump relay if it is all in good shape. I'll trade you for the stuff you want from me.

By Don (199.2.139.178) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 05:48 pm:

Its not that they wont bolt on its that you dont need them. In my race car I have a driver adjustable pressure valve for the rear brakes. It wont take full pressure with out locking the rears. So why add weight and hassle when its not needed in the rear? Put the fronts on and you will be happy.

By Kyle Thomson (24.83.12.187) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 04:04 pm:

I think what Yellow civic was trying to say is that the caliper mounting bolts are spaced wider, I think that may be the only difference for the wagon upright

By Adrian (Evocivic) (203.42.97.141) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 03:29 pm:

I don't know what you guys are complaining about. I've always found the rear brake adjusters to be quite reasonable. All you need is a 7mm spanner ... easy and they do work. If you go to later model rears though they have self adjusters .

You should try playing with a Mini with four wheel drums ... the front brakes need adjusting after pretty much every press of the pedal!!

By Yellowcivic (67.139.230.135) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 03:21 pm:

The wagon bolt patten is wider just a bit. The holes need to be slotted or welded up and re-drilled. I think evething else is about the same. I have seen rear brakes on these cars that are so far out of adjustment that they aren't even really helping stop. I always adust mine every oil change. I even made my own tool to make adjusting easyer.
David

By Jonathan (68.193.6.173) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 02:39 pm:

I was looking through my Honda manual at the differences between the sedan and wagon rear drums, and the only thing I can see is the wagon brakes are 200mm versus the sedan brakes at 180 mm. The backing plates look like they should swap right over, and the spindles from the backing plate outward look the same too. Is there something I'm missing? What causes the wagon brakes to not be a bolt-on?

By Jonathan (68.193.6.173) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 01:20 pm:

John, so far all I know about the wagon is that it's a '78, and has rust. I'm getting it for the brake parts, anything good on top of that is just gravy. I'm going to pick it up in about two weeks, providing that there's a trailer available from a rental center. If not, I'm going to have to look into borrowing a trailer and a tow vehicle. If I don't get it on that Saturday, it'll be almost another month before there's a free Saturday, with Christmas and New Year's falling one week after the next. I plan on stripping everything usable off it, and sending it to the junkyard right away, I don't have the room to store a parts vehicle for any length of time. I'll post when I get it, anyone who needs a spare part, lemme know then.

By Justin (24.83.36.37) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 08:29 am:

They will work for a 1200 or cvcc hatch. the wagon rotor is larger. You will be happy with the wagon upgrade, I did Twyla's convertible, and it's tons better than the factory 1200 stuff.

By Kyle Thomson (24.83.12.187) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 07:31 am:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7940073928&category=33564
what are the chances these will work? I hope that picture is generic

By Don (199.2.139.170) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 06:22 am:

I gave a set of rear wagon brakes away because they are more work than they are worth. Honda went DOWN in rear brake size on gen 2, so that should tell you something
No CV mods required for the gen 1 wagon front brake setup on a sedan. Its no harder than bolting on the stock parts.

By John S. (68.94.114.236) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 11:45 pm:

Whoops, I meant Jonathan...got the threads mixed up...

By John S. (68.94.114.236) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 10:26 pm:

Wow Cody,
That is great to hear, by the way you are already saving the money to rent the trailer by getting the whole shebang for 20.00, and I'm sure their are some people who will want some of the parts you won't use. I would start a new thread when you are ready though because I don't think everyone reads everything being posted and they might miss what you'll be offering . Did you look to see if it had air? Is it stick or automatic?

By Jonathan (68.193.6.173) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 08:16 pm:

Well, I made a call today to see about wagon parts from a Honda place near me. They couldn't get the parts new, but it turns out they have a complete '78 Wagon sitting behind thier shop, and the owner wants to get rid of it. Doesn't want to sell parts off it, just wants the whole thing gone. So, I now have the chance to buy the whole thing for $20! Talk about luck! All I need to do is rent a trailer to tow it home with . Looks like I've got another winter project, and it looks like I'm gonna be selling some other wagon parts in a few weeks. Hopefully I can even get the cost of trailer rental back!

By John S. (68.94.114.236) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 05:01 pm:

Jonathan, Yes you can find a way to fit the wagon rear drums. They are not a direct bolt on however and though they are about 20% bigger than the standard rear drums it is up to you if it is worth the hassle or not. I have run the Wagon/Accord caliper setup alone for over 15yrs and truly didn't miss larger rear brakes. Personally I think it makes more sense to alter ones driving habits and give yourself more space from the knuckleheads around you. The fronts however are a different story, I always felt they were marginal on a stock Civic, you start adding HP and or displacement and you NEED the larger front brakes no matter if you want to stay 120mm or upgrade to 100mm. I will get those parts to you after the Holidays.
Getting back to your current rotors. Once again if they are not scored too badly just put on a set of pads, they will wear in to a seat. The tool I mentioned which will turn the rotors on the car bolts on where the caliper goes, they just put the car in gear(on a lift) and let it idle, and it trues the rotors on the car.This service isn't cheap though...used to cost 75.00 ten years ago...(Honda Knew they were saving you money on bearings and they want a cut of it). I have no idea how much they want for that service now. That is why I suggest if you can get by with just pads...since you want to do a swap out soon...go as cheap as you can as long as it is safe.

By bruce (66.20.228.205) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 02:11 pm:

you will also need the outer cv joint from the car you get the hubs off of. is this correct?
Jonathan.....the rotors on the early civics have to be pressed on.....you can get them apart but was easier to have a shop press them together, and if your going have them turned it is just as cheap to buy new rotors. just redo the originals..make sure your calipers are working correctly, I rebuilt both of mine, the passenger one still would not work right, was eating the inner pad every 3 months I finally just bought a new one and replaced it.

By Jonathan (68.193.6.173) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 08:35 am:

John, I know I don't have to change the rears out, but if I find a wagon for the front brake parts, I also found a wagon that I could get the rear brake parts off too. I was just wondering if anyone tried to swap over the rear drums.

About the pulley, yeah, I sent you an e-mail a while back with my address. I was waiting to hear back with the cost of the pulley and shipping. How much would you want for the Calipers too, if you have them?

It looks like I might as well try to source the wagon parts over the winter, I doubt the road salt fairy is gonna hold off much longer, places about 15 miles North of me already have white roads. When I do the conversion, I'll post some pictures of what I did. Just to confirm, the parts I'd need are:

Wagon hubs and knuckles
Wagon rotors
Accord Calipers/pads
New bearings/seals for the hubs
Wagon master cylinder ?

Has anyone used a good brand of pads for early Accords?

By Adrian (Evocivic) (203.42.97.141) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 06:56 am:

Does Honda Civics come originally with 4x120 stud pattern?

Yes

Then if so, back to J's question: is that for better parts availalilty?

Yes. 4x120 wheels are hard to get and expensive to have custom made. 4x100 are very very common. Also the different hubs allow fitting of much bigger brakes a lot easier.

By Canada76civic (Canada76civic) (68.146.162.88) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 06:49 am:

Sorry if I do bit of hijack this thread for one minute...Jonathan do pose a good question about the 4x100 stud pattern. First of all, I need to understand something:

Does Honda Civics come originally with 4x120 stud pattern?

Then if so, back to J's question: is that for better parts availalilty?

I'm pretty sure that the type of information had been beaten to death before...but I've only been on the board since July and I'd like to know that for the sake of improving brakes. Thanks!

By John S. (66.136.148.42) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 10:02 pm:

I just reread your message. If you haven't eaten up the rotors too badly just throw in some new pads for now.I think someone is listing a set on eBay right now. Then hunt down the Wagon uprights. You either have to take the car to someone who can turn your stock rotors on the car...which is the best way as it accounts for bearing runout (usually only Honda dealers and really good shops have on of these tools), or you have to bust the whole assembly apart and lunch your bearings. No point in doing that unless they are shot already. You cannot reuse the bearings if you take them apart, no matter what anyone might tell you. They will fail repidly if you try it. If your rotors aren't scored too bad youcan probably get by for some time with just the new pads.

By John S. (66.136.148.42) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 09:48 pm:

Jonathan,
You don't need to change your rear brakes to swap in the wagon front parts. The hardest thing for you to find is the Wagon uprights, then you need the wagon rotors too...if you are lucky you will find then both together. You do want the Accord calipers though...aren't I going to send you a crank pulley? If so I will dig around and see if I don't have some spare caliper assemblies I can send you too. You will have to get kits and rebuild them however. By the way, these Civics are like motorcycles in that probably 75% of the braking is done by the front brakes. Thus it is the fronts that will show you the best gains. The rears are just an afterthought. The main thing with the rears is keeping them adjusted, no easy feat as the stock 1st Gen honda adjuster setup in nigh on worthless, you need to readjust them almost weekly.

By Jonathan (68.193.6.173) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 09:07 pm:

Kurt, I was planning on getting everything I could from a parts store, but there's still some parts that I need from a parts car, right? Mainly the hubs? I'm not running the EK, still running the ED. Should be similar weights though, both have the cast iron block and aluminum head.

Adrian, I don't really want to go with the 4x100 conversion, I recently got a set of Panasport wheels in 4x120, and would like to keep them for now. What's the advantage of the 4x100 stud pattern? Is it only for better parts availability?

By Adrian (Evocivic) (203.42.97.141) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 08:56 pm:

If you're considering upgrading the brakes .. do it properly and change the stud pattern to 4x100 at the same time. I'm not going to list the parts or procedure, it's been done to death already. If you just go with slightly bigger wagon brakes and don't change the stud pattern you'll be kicking yourself later that you didn't do it now. Once you have all the parts the actual swap can easily be done in a day or two.
Do big brakes make a difference? ... YES!! Put some big vented rotors and Accord or CRX calipers on and it'll be a totally different car.

My advice: do it properly the first time. Either just freshen up your current brakes if you don't have the money or bite the bullet ...

By Kurt (205.250.75.226) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 08:51 pm:

I found brake parts to be super cheap for these things at the local parts store, thats why I spent the extra $$ on the brembo ones.

You know that in order to turn the rotors you have to split the hubs right - which means new bearings and seals. If your going through that just buy the new rotors.

You will be running the EK right? With my EL I never noticed the heavier motor affecting my brakes-although I did have all new brakes. I wanted wagon ones too but I wanted to finish the brakes and got tired of waiting. I'm sure the wagon brakes are worth it but basically I am more than happy with mine.

By Jonathan (68.193.6.173) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 08:41 pm:

Well, it's time for me to put front brakes on my Civic. I figure I've got two options...

Stock rebuild - It's the cheapest, and I don't need to pull apart the front suspension all that bad. I figure I can have everything done in a day, including a machine shop visit to resurface the rotors.

Upgrade the front brakes - It's much more expensive, and will involve me finding the wagon uprights, rotors, and 1st gen Accord calipers (those are the ones I use, right?). This is gonna be much more work, but it'll give me the chance to swap in a set of lowering springs while I'm at it. This means I've got to take the rear suspension apart too though. Would I be able to get new bearings/seals/etc. for the wagon hubs, or do I really need to find a set of good used ones? About how much do you think the whole conversion will cost?

Here's my question: What would you do if you were in my position? If I go with the brake upgrade, I've pretty much parked my Civic until spring, at least, but I do have better brakes. Is the braking that much better for my dollar?

Also, if I do go with the wagon front brakes, is there a way to convert to the wagon rear brakes too? I noticed that the wagon drums are a little bigger.

I suppose I'd need the wagon master cylinder too, or will a new stock one suffice? I seem to get conflicting information when I do a search.

Lastly, does anyone know of a good source for the wagon parts I'd need? Mostly the uprights, I was planning on getting the rotors and calipers new. I figure the cost of shipping for the rotors and calipers would be about the same as buying them locally.