| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 02:42 am: |
Quote:I have just completed the rear wheel disc conversion and this is what I did (Thanks to Justin for the info).
I took my 91 civic rear hubs to my local machinist, who turned the inner land to accept a Koyo 68/28 2RS bearing, he machined the outer land to accept a Koyo 6304 2RS bearing and because there is not really enough of a bearing land internally behind the outer bearing to stop it from working off, he cut an inside groove for a circlip. ( total cost $120.00 for two hubs. I supplied the bearings.) Now I have completely replaceable bearings for under $30.00 per side....no extra seals are needed as the bearings have their own. I just removed the inner seal on each bearing and repacked in the normal way. Also had to trim .150" off the original internal spacer due to the 91 hub being a little narrower. In order to line up the Prelude calipers with the 92 SI rotors I required an additional shim of .200" behind the hub. To fit the Ebrake cables you will have to make a 1/2" thick shim to raise it from it's original mount or it will interfere with the strut mount. Hook it up and loop it around behind the strut and run it forward up beside the gas tank. The brake line was rebuilt using the original top fittings, and the banjo fitting from the prelude, with 3000# flex hose in between. Stainless outer sheathing was available for $20.00 more but was not considered worth it since both hoses come with a stainless braided interior wrap anyway. (total cost $55.00 for two sides by Coast Industrial in Victoria)
There you go...have fun. Cheers; Bob (in Victoria)
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 02:34 am: |
I can't find it anywhere. It must have been lost in the crash of '04
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 02:05 am: |
*hails John* you da man!
| By John S. (66.143.32.120) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 01:55 am: |
Since you are still awake,
I was looking for my chart of gear ratios for Colza, and I tripped over the printouts I made regarding the Rear disc conv. we are taking about...
Bob Jones...Thursday, May 29th 2003
under "rear disc conversion problem.need help"
and one of Justins posts detailing his approach to the problem to compare it to...
Tues, October 22nd 2002
under "GSR rears discs on a 1st gen ???"
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 01:07 am: |
Quote:Well, You were havin' so much fun I didn't want to burst your bubble. Besides look how much you learned from the exercise...it's all good...
| By John S. (66.143.32.120) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:44 am: |
Well, You were havin' so much fun I didn't want to burst your bubble. Besides look how much you learned from the exercise...it's all good...
I have to admit the first time I pulled one of those Acura rear assemblies apart in the U-Wrench-It I thought it was a weird setup too, but no matter what I think, I know we can always trust Honda to know what they are doing, so...
My think is that since I already have hubs with good bearings, I will have the machining done on the outboard side and leave the inside alone...for now. But I will nab the pieces needed to do the mods on the inside of the hubs and years down the road when the stock bearings do shoot craps...then I'll have them modified on the inboard side. "Waste Not Want Not" as 'ol Ben would say.
| By lazy (139.130.237.102) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 04:41 pm: |
"Plus if you search the threads on this subject in the archives there is a post by one of the group, who did additional mods to the Acura hubs to yield what you wanted. Changeable inboard and outboard bearings, from available off shelf bearings. He even gave the part numbers and described the machining processes he had done to keep them in place." Why didn't you just say that from the get-go? I'll look through the archives when I get a chance - thanks
As for the whole bearing load thing.. I can't imagine applying a torsional load to a single inner bearing in contact with 18mm (max.) of the spindle. Toyota has been using single rear bearings since the mid-80's, but they're all 36mm wide - quite a difference.
| By John S. (68.92.154.180) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 12:01 pm: |
If you look at the Acura hub you will see that Honda engineered it to run sufficiently on the inboard bearings. Sufficiently enough to carry an additional 1000lb load and the stresses involved on supporting a 160HP+ powertrain...without the extra bearing.
The mods Justin and others have already made, and I am in the process of making can handle way more load the any of us will EVER put them through. Sure the additional bearing will handle some load, but don't forget it is the larger(inboard) size bearing of the two that originally were designed by Honda to handle your car's rigors. The origional outboard bearing on the 1st Gen hub is substantially smaller than the one we are using.
Plus if you search the threads on this subject in the archives there is a post by one of the group, who did additional mods to the Acura hubs to yield what you wanted. Changeable inboard and outboard bearings, from available off shelf bearings. He even gave the part numbers and described the machining processes he had done to keep them in place. They are the same techniques that Honda itself uses to secure bearings from sideload movement, and quite adequate and safe.
I'm only trying to save you some time and money that could be put to use in a much more efficient manner, why start from scratch, when Honda has already done the majority of the work for you?
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 03:00 am: |
I don't know where you're coming from John S.
My previous post was referring to a custom spun hub, not a modified acura item. And you make it sound like the new outer bearing isn't going to have any load on it. If that's what you meant, how did you come to that conclusion?
| By John S, (66.143.47.109) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 02:17 am: |
You know, You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. By using the Acura rear hub and machining the outer area to ADD a bearing you are strengthening the entire load rating of the hub both in terms of axle load, and maximun side load. As I stated before, the standard Acura hub alone was designed to hold up the rear end of a car weighing close to 1000lbs more than the rear of a first Gen Civic...with V-TEC power...and rear disc brakes. You do not need to remove the stock bearings from the Acura hub, just find a couple of GOOD used ones, and have the machining done.
Any "engineer" will take one look at it and KNOW it is stronger than a stock unit.
You are not machining a drum into a hub, you are machining an existing hub to take an additional bearing on the outside, which you don't need for load rating, it is only done to enable you to mount it on the 1st Gen axle stub.
| By lazy (139.130.237.102) on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 04:34 pm: |
Yeah, there's no way any rear disc swap on a 1g could be classed as minor. I'll have to hand in a list of what I did to get the rear brakes fitted and instead of putting 'custom untested hub' I can just say I used a hub off a different car.. It's too impractical for them to pull the brakes apart to check if I'm lying or not.. and even if they did they'd have to have something to compare the hub against. I doubt they're going to run out and source one for comparison.
The inspections are a pain in the arse but ultimately a good thing as it protects me from other idiots' ghetto mods.
It looks like I'll be able to used tapered bearings. I had a couple of choices but will be going with the 'weakest' for the outer bearing as it has a smaller OD than stock. It can still handle a 60% greater dynamic load than the stock 1200 item and will allow me to use a better design for the outer section of the hub's centre bore.
The inner bearing also has a smaller OD so the revised design will be heavier, but hopefully stronger. I'm really starting to wonder about the mass of this thing. The bosses for the studs sound like a colossal pain to add to the design - that's assuming it's even possible in the first place. I'll leave it as it is.. if it's good enough for Honda it's good enough for me!
| By John (67.180.167.118) on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 09:18 am: |
Hmmm. From what you have written, it does'nt sound like the hub could be classed as minor. Have you ever spoken to one of these automotive engineers? For example, would you need to present any evidence (i.e. a stress analysis)? I'm going to guess that a newly designed part would be more difficult to pass than a modified stock piece. If this is indeed a rigorous process, I think you might be able to make a logical argument to get modified pieces to pass (like a drum modified into a simple hub), while a newly designed part would need some real engineering data to back it up. But then again, I don't live in Australia...
We don't have anything like this in the US. About the closest we ever came to something like this is the vehicle inspections that used to occur in California (well before my time). I remember a friends older brother who purchased a car that had one of these old inspection stickers pasted to the front window. In this case it said it passed, but was not allowed to legally exceed 50 mph! From what I remember of the car, the 50 mph limit was probably a bit too generous.
| By lazy (139.130.237.102) on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 04:41 pm: |
Legality on public roads. Here in Australia vehicle modifications are based on a trichotomous system. Minor modifications basically covers replacing stock parts with other parts optionally available for the same make/model/year of car. The government doesn't care about minor mods. They do, however, care about any other mod that can't be classed as 'minor'. I have to have these mods inspected and approved by an automotive engineer (who is certified by the government).
The laws also differ between states/territories which makes things fun. For example: here in QLD it is illegal to have any sort of nitrous system/component installed in a street car, whereas in neighbouring NSW you can have it installed as long as the hose to the bottle is disconnected. I know a guy who lives in NSW and has a nos system in his car.. he visited his mum in QLD and got fined - even though the bottle wasn't even in the car!
| By John (67.180.167.118) on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 01:36 pm: |
Lazy, what are the legal ramifications? Does the legality refer to driving on the road, or running in a particular class? I can't imagine outside of the vehicle inspections that go on in Japan, or some of the TUV requirements in Germany. Does Australia have some kind of vehicle inspection?
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 06:28 am: |
You make some very good points about longevity - which is something I never really questioned. Rather, I was addressing the cost and ease of replacing the parts when they do eventually wear out.
I agree with you regarding recycling as well
| By John S. (66.143.53.178) on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 04:09 am: |
Well, I am lucky enough to be close to a U-Wrench-It. I have already sourced three sets of those hubs...all good ones...and I plan on having two sets machined soon, but Honda bearings generally last a long time, and don't forget the extra bearing on the outboard side helps to distribute the load and should help make the complete assembly last even longer. There again the car I will put the rear disc setup on only has 40,000 actual miles on it, and I don't anticipate putting more than 1-2 thousand a year on the car from here on out. Another consideration is that the Acura rear hub was designed to carry a much greater load than our little 1st Gens will ever put on them. So I just don't see longevity being much of an issue.
For me it is price, and good used parts, especially if you know how to test feel parts like that just can't be beat.
One other,to me, very important aspect,(being what some have called an old f...n hippie), is that I try to recycle as much as possible. The best way to recycle something is to put it into use again, and use it as long as it is safe to do so.
It makes me sick to see how many perfectly good vehicles are crushed every year just because they need a couple of parts to get back on the road. Another good way to recycle, in fact it's probably the best way is to not create new waste in the first place. I'll tell you this...and you can quote me on it...someday our waste WILL bite us in the ass. But then that's another story.
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 01:22 am: |
John S.: I'm not sure if the price quoted is in USD or AUD.. I'm assuming US. Meanwhile.. what happens later on down the track when you need to replace the bearings? Searching salvage yards will be out of the question as the bearings will be shagged, so you'll have to buy a whole new hub/bearing assembly, a new outer bearing and then pay to get the lot machined again - $$$$$$. The alternative is to spend a bit more money now and just have to press some replacements in when the time comes.
John without an S.: What are the benefits of bosses? And the car's just for fun street with lotsa show.. probably 7" or 6.5" wide wheels. If I understood the guy I was talking to correctly - it's illegal over here to use a stub assembly from a different car. I haven't been able to find any info on making a custom spindle up as that would be a fantastic and legal alternative. On your advice I'm looking deeper into the possibility of using tapered roller bearings.
Cheers,
Josh
| By John (67.180.167.118) on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 11:17 pm: |
Thanks John S. (I feel like I am addressing my alter ego ). Yes, I am aware of electrolysis, but I was not addressing that issue (I also don't think it is much a concern). While the term "rust" commonly refers to iron oxidation, I was simply addressing the general issue of oxidation. Aluminum may not rust (in the sense we use the term), but it does oxidize.
A joke among material engineers is that no one has seen pure aluminum, because it oxidizes so quickly. Okay, it's not much of a punchline, but then again I don't think there are any material engineers that have crossed over into stand up comedy...
| By John S. (66.143.53.178) on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 10:43 pm: |
John,
Just so you will know...electrolysis is not a oxidation process, it is a chemical/electrical reaction setup by two dissimilar metals being in close contact with one another. This can also erode the inside of aluminum cylinder heads when combined with a iron block.
| By John (67.180.167.118) on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 10:24 pm: |
Lazy, yeah, a one-on-one is out of the question at the moment. I'm located in the San Francisco Bay Area (California).
Is rust/oxidation much of a problem where you live? Also, John S., aluminum can oxidize quite nicely, and the high strength alloys are highly susceptable (i.e. oxidize *much* faster and easier). While anodizing is a common treatment to solve the problem, another method that is used is alclad. Alclad is a thin plating of pure aluminum over alloys like 2024. Works very well at controlling oxidation, and polishes to a brilliant finish. If you ever seen a higly polished airplane (e.g. a warbird like a P51 Mustang, or even a newer commercial aircraft), what you are looking at is the polished alclad finish.
Lazy, I don't think shot peening is needed, but it can help longevity. Does emachine offer shot peening? Does emachine allow you to call out a surface finish? I would just consider using generous radii, a good surface finish and including bosses in the final design (i.e. a raised boss around the area where the studs press in). Also, if you want to place the lightening (?) holes in the final design, just keep them away from the fillet/radius where the bearing housing meets the flange.
BTW, what are you doing with your car? Just fun street, racing, or ?? What kind of wheel/tire package are you running, or considering running? One of the things I would like to address if I were making a hub, is to use larger bearings, or even a different style/combination of bearings. For example, you could try something like the tapered roller bearing setup found in the 1G Accords (and LOTS of other cars). In my experience, the stock bearings are a bit undersized for large tires and conering loads (like 1.3G and 13x9 rims).
How about this for an idea... use an Accord rear spindle assy (which if memory serves me, is a bit larger, which is good) and design the hub to use the taper bearings (which you can adjust). Make the hub out of aluminum, and design it so that the races press into the hub firmly (heat press). If this sounds interesting, I can give you my ideas for the rest of the rear suspension.
| By John S. (65.69.66.246) on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 10:49 am: |
Oh yeah, your price quoted probably isn't including the price of races, bearings and seals either, though I was thinking in US dollars, not yours.
| By John S. (65.69.66.246) on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 10:46 am: |
Ouch, see now we are back to the origional problem. That is twice the cost of modifying the factory pieces to work, so why do it the hard way? Time to hit the salvage yards again...
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 03:27 am: |
nah, no good aluminiums are offered in the program.
$500 for 2 hubs delivered. ~$380 a pair if two sets are ordered. Three sets cost ~$444 a pair (go figure) and four sets are about $344 a pair.
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 03:06 am: |
Wow! Thanks John.. that's the most informative reply I've received in quite a while
I live in Australia and I'm guessing you don't, so a one-on-one is probably out of the question.
I initially just guessed the flange to be 10mm. I then measured the front hub off a 2g civic and found it to be 7mm at its thickest point - which was around the four studs... Actually.. I just re-measured and its 6.5mm at the thinnest and 8.5 at the thickest.. oops :P Seems I mistakenly used the rounded-up 6.5mm as my thickness... probably thanks to all of the measurements floating around in my head at the time:P
However - the knurl length on the wheel studs is supposedly 7mm yet they are protruding past the outer face of the flange I have.. strange. I'll change the design to 9mm for the moment and order a couple of sets of ARP studs to measure up etc. I don't think it will be worth going to 10mm as a flange of constant 9mm thickness should be significantly stronger than one varying between 8.5 and 6.5mm.
It would be nice to design an 'ultimate hub' using a more exotic lightweight metal but the 100%+ increase in price makes it far too impractical in my view. That, plus this emachines program has somewhat limited designing functionality.
Do you think shot peening would be worth the expense, or do you believe it is necessary to some degree? Cryo is apparently quite cost-effective.
I wonder how much these things will weigh..
| By John S. (66.142.42.206) on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 01:33 am: |
Oh yeah, If you are going with the aluminum then rust will not be a problem, electrolysis around the wheel stud areas might be over the long haul. Also, it seems to me that someone in an earlier post mentioned that cryogenic treatments only work on ferrous metals, so that may not be an option here.
| By John S. (66.142.42.206) on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 01:24 am: |
Have you priced what a chunk of that metal alloy is going to cost?
| By John (67.180.167.118) on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 07:58 pm: |
Lazy,
Where are you located? It might be easier to talk in person, rather than write here. Not to mention I seem to get interrupted everytime I try to respond to this post...
Without doing some analysis, I would just copy the dimensions of a stock piece (i.e. make the flange 10mm), and call out for generous radii. I would then make the hub from 1020 and leave it at that. If you can, there is a aircraft/mil spec version of 1020 that would be nice to use if you can (mainly to insure you are getting consistent, batch tested material). I would not bother with heat treatments at this point. A heat treatment is a another complex topic, and would really only be benificial if you wanted a lighter part- but only after you did a complete redesign.
A stress relieving process would be nice. Shot peening would fill the bill, but then again you need to find someone who knows what they are doing. For example, just about every engine builder I have ever spoken to has the ability to shot peen. But if you ask them specifics, they can't answer. They just figure that they will throw some random sized shot at some unknown velocity in the general direction of your part. Not nearly good enough...
I don't have any personal experience with cryo treatments, but they might be usefull. I understand the theory, however, I would like to do some destructive testing before I say anymore. If you are interested, try to talk to an apps engineer at one of these places.
As for rustproofing, emachine might be likely to offer a black oxide coating. Maybe they might offer an electroless nickel. If not, I'd probably just use a zinc rich primer and some paint. Once again, I just think if you can't get it done at emachine, it is probably not worth the cost and time to find someone who offers rustproofing services.
Finally, emachines business model. I was just refering to the way the do business, the type of clients they are targeting and how they serve their customers. I was just trying to use a term that communicated I knew about emachine, without going into any detail.
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 07:02 pm: |
sounds like you really know what you're talking about John So if I were to use 1020 would I need to apply any sort of heat treatment or the likes? Or could I just use 1040 (it is the same price)? The only other thing I was wondering about was rustproofing.
I'm now considering skipping the prototype idea and just getting a pair made up in final form. What's emachines business model?
| By John (67.180.167.118) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 06:01 pm: |
Aluminum is fine for the hub, but just choose a different alloy. 6061 T6 is not what I would call a structural alloy, although there are many that would have you believe otherwise. The most ridiculous claim for 6061 T6 is that it is an aerospace/aircraft alloy. HA! Basically, 6061 is cheap compared to some of the more common aerospace alloys like 2024 and 7075. IMO a better choice for this application would be 2024 T3 (better at high temps).
For a bearing like that in the 1G, aluminum is a fine choice. There are some clever ways to easily remove the bearings without damaging the hub or using a press- techniques that don't work with steel.
As for steel, any of the 10xx series will not deep harden well. Of course it would be fine for a case hardening, but that is not even needed in this application. If you are considering steel, 1020 could me made to work just fine.
So, are you considering ordering a prototype off emachines website? I've never used them before, but I am aware of their business model.
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 06:05 am: |
Thanks zippy, it sounds like 1010 mild steel may be the go. I've read that as you add carbon to steel it gets harder, but also more brittle.. so would that exclude the 1020 etc. grades?
I copied a list of options the programs gives for metal choices along with their apparent properties. You can check it out here if you want (opens in new window).
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 03:21 am: |
I was actually asking about metal types for the final (non-prototype) version... in the event that I or someone else wanted these ones I'm fiddling with.
| By Jarcaf (Jarcaf) (207.55.238.216) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 12:43 am: |
If he's using the prototype only for fitting purposes, it wouldn't really matter which metal he uses does it? He obviously just won't be able to drive on it.
| By Zippy (Zippy) (12.106.14.107) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 10:17 am: |
David,
That is the smartest idea I've heard in a long time. I like the center caps too.
If you don't know how to do the math to calculate the stress/strain on a given part in a given condition and then ENGINEER the part to the appropriate specifications for that metal then you should use 1010 mild steel. The weight savings on a critical part like this is negligible when compared to the possibility of catistrophic failure. The weight savings is not worth the loss of long term durability. Mild steel is great becasue it bends and dosen't break. Hardened metals are more likely to fatigue and break without warning.
| By yellowcivic (209.63.196.149) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 07:26 am: |
These are the wheel centers I made:
What do you think? I even used old honda pistons for the aluminum:
| By yellowcivic (209.63.196.149) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 07:17 am: |
Hi Lazy, The 1010 steel is mild steel not much carbon. The higher the last two numbers the more carbon. 1040 steel is much better and would harden more if needed. If you used the aluminum I would guess you would need to go thicker not thinner. I was thinking, why not use the stock rear hub and cut the drum off and addapt a disk to that. Wouldn't be that hard to do. Anyone with a lathe could do the basic hub from scratch. A mill would be needed for the stud drilling. When I get back to my lathe I might have to do some trying. Also, I made new wheel caps for my alloy wheels with my lathe using old accord wheel cap ceters. They look great on my aftermarket wheels. David
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 01:23 am: |
I believe the 1g rear bearings are used in a stack of different cars including BMW's, so there's no real chance of production stopping any time soon.
I think metric bearings with a bore the same diameter as the 1g's aren't at all common, so it's easier to stick with the originals. Plus each bearing has different load and speed ratings etc. which make the task of finding a match or better harder. All that, plus I never bothered looking :P
Thanks for the input on the metal type, I was thinking that may be the case, but didn't (and still don't) know what the difference between the various types of carbon steel are (1010, 1018 etc.). I'll stick with 1061 T6 Al for the prototype to keep costs down though... I think it should be fine for that I really don't want to take the studs out of the EN hubs so I'll have to stick with my guess.
| By lilbucu (24.16.243.28) on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 08:27 pm: |
that is very cool, i would recomend a hardened metal (like with carbon). all i know is most hubs are made with hardened metal. i'm almost possitive that aluminum will be way too soft.
on a side note, why are most people keen on using the first gen bearings? i know it will work like stock and you wouldn't have to buy new parts and that would be nice, but i'm afraid that older parts like 1st gen bearings might be discontinued in the future. (is this even a valid concern? i've never tried shopping for 1st gen bearings so i don't know how hard they are to get). would it be possible to incorporate a modern newer bearing that would be easier to find and have a longer production run? i would think this would be a better option as long as factory reliability would remain intact. this is just a thought.
btw, if you have knuckles/hubs sitting in front of you, its pretty easy to hammer out the studs and measure the hole.
even though my 4x100 full 4 wheel disk brake conversion is already completed, its very cool for you to do this for future 1st gen enthusists.
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 07:00 am: |
update before bed...
I remembered I had some front knuckles with EN hubs in them so I was able to take most of the measurements. I discovered civics have wheels with a 56mm centre bore (I just assumed it'd be the same as the rotor centre hole)... so that changed things a bit. Made the flange 7mm thick (down from 10mm) and remembered a little company called ARP :P they have a new line of both stock length and longer replacement honda wheel studs. The thread is M12, and the 'knurl' diameter is 12.319mm, so I guessed and made the stud holes 12.1mm.
I may order this hub as a prototype and see how things fit. Some advice on metal type would still be appreciated though Would 'Steel, Carbon Type 1010' be a better choice over 1061 T6 Al? There are also options for 1015, 1018, 1020, 1040 but I can't see the difference between them. Thanks again
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 12:16 am: |
anyone heard of emachineshop.com? I've had a bit of a fiddle with their free 'cad for dummies' program and come up with this:
This design has the bearings sitting exactly where they do in the 1g drum so you can use 1g drum bearings and the centre cone bit and torque the hub down to stock specifications. The outer surface that the rotor sits against is exactly where the drums outer surface is, so with a rotor on the wheel will be offset about +5.6mm (depending on which rotor you choose).
Anyway, I have a few final questions.
1. What should it be made out of? (At the moment I have it set to 6061 T6 Aluminium as it is the cheapest)
2. Anyone know of a site where I can find specs/details on wheel studs? I need to figure out a few things like stud mounting hole diameter.
3. (related to Q2) Anyone know the thickness of a later model civic hub flange (the bit the studs are pressed though)?
Oh, and I've also drawn a centre cap up.
Thanks heaps guys
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 04:26 am: |
Thanks for those measurements John I'm a bit late, but Merry Christmas All!
| By Kyle Thomson (24.83.12.187) on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 08:39 pm: |
How large can you go? just curious if you could make anything as large as a valve cover? say the Mugen design? =)
| By sdcvcc (68.101.197.93) on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 07:33 pm: |
We now have our Haas 3 axis in shop and ready to set up. It will be at least a month before I even ask about making parts for my own desires, but at least its a start. Hubs are a definete. Taking measurements on some this week to draw up a schematic. Caliper brackets are optional too, I will just need a template or some measurements. Someone mentioned a Honda logo or 1G logo. Any ideas for that?
| By John S. (68.93.11.147) on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 01:38 pm: |
Hey Lazy,
I just happen to have one of those at ready disposal.
Overall height is 34mm
small OD=29mm...ID=20mm
large OD-=36mm...ID=28mm
All measurements are approx, but well within a milimeter ea.
Hope that helps.
Oh and Happy Holidays to all!!!!!!
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 01:18 am: |
I'm doing a bit of research into the hub design.. would anyone happen to have part #2 lying around? I need to know the length.
| By John S. (68.91.80.144) on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 11:10 am: |
You new guys really would do well to take the time to search through the archives because a lot of this stuff you are thinking about as new, and it is new to you, HAS been throughly discussed and hashed out by many of us working together to do it over the last...what's it been now, over 5 years this site has been up. Take advantage of what is there, we all worked hard to put it there.
Once again, thanks to Richard Nasr for taking the time to get this site up and running, and for maintaining it all these years
| By John S. (68.91.80.144) on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 10:59 am: |
Hey Guys lets try not to forget that one of Hondas old slogans was "We keep it simple."
A couple of pieces some of us might be able to use would be:
Torqueplates for the different motors.
Intake and exhaust flanges CNC'd so we might build some custom intake manifolds and or Headers.
Hell, these things would be simple projects for someone just starting to learn...baby steps...
And the caliper bracket idea was excellant too. It would be a lot easier than trying to chase down the Wagon uprights, and a lot cheaper to ship them too, plus you could cut them from 6061 Aluminum and they would be light as well.
Custom aluminum rear caliper brakets to fit the 2ndGens would be nice too.
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 05:31 am: |
a new rear stub is an interesting idea.. I'd just choose the easiest/cheapest option between that and the custom hub.
| By Eric (128.192.81.32) on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 05:20 am: |
If you guys are going to machine things you would do well to make some of the mugen caliper adapter brackets. Then you could use the stock 1200 spindles for the 4x100 conversion. Adrian's right, the EN hubs will go onto the 1200 spindles, all you have to do is countersink the bolts in the bearing seal. It wouldn't be worth the trouble to make costly new hubs when you can just use a pair of brackets and some 2nd gen parts to do what you want.
As for rear discs, I think a new stub axle could be designed that will bolt up to the 1st gen, but use a complete late-model setup.
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 04:59 am: |
a 1g badge is a cool idea.
| By go4mo (213.89.251.33) on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 03:46 am: |
ok .. just adding in another vote for the -
1. Custom hubs for a rear disc conversion that uses stock 1200 bearings, 1200 inner seal & 2g+ outer seal -
2. a hub to solve the 4x120 dilemma --
3. (yet to be designed) - custom shortshifter AND something new and improved to replace the shifter housing that always rattles like a mofo and is nasty to find parts for ..
and, how about some damn centre caps with a sweet " 1G CIVIC " logo ..
does anyone remember the discussions a few years ago about making up a metal 1G emblem? -- i don't know how detailed you can get with this new beast, but it would be a seriously whacked and sweet thing to have custom 1G civic badges made .. or even reproduce the old ones (they are nasty to get a hold of too)
i digress --
back to the list --
-- and since it was sort of mentioned, i've been giving some thought to designing a better knuckle/upright ..
(i know many of you gearheads have lots of experienceto offer this topic -- maybe we should start another thread on the subject, then bringit back here -- )
..this would be the mother of improvements (suspension wise, or so i think --) ..
anyone care to discuss it? --
and also, sdcvcc - thanks so much for your offer to help out with this stuff -- it's a generous thing --
to bad you can't fab upsome new weatherstripping !
cheers
mo
| By Adrian (Evocivic) (203.42.97.141) on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 11:09 pm: |
Why go to all the trouble and expense of machining a drive flange when an EN one fits straight on? It also wouldn't be that easy to make as it needs to be splined to accept the CV joint.
All you need to do is change the bolts holding on the outer grease seal and use an EN CV joint .. info that's been covered MANY MANY MANY times before.
| By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.190.188) on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 10:29 pm: |
Yeah... somebody make that it'd be nice to have a selection of wheels without changing all the suspension parts and machining the stub axles..
-Richard
| By sdcvcc (64.165.9.123) on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 07:49 pm: |
I think a hub that fits right on our current 1G would be best.
I am in San Diego,
| By yellowcivic (67.50.250.21) on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 07:37 pm: |
I was thinking, why couldn't a front hub be made that is a copy but modified for the first gen civics that let you put the disk on the outer side of the flange? Maybe that wouldn't work? It would be easy to make a billet copy for the front hub 4-100MM pattern with the same original designe. Wouldn't be that hard with a standard non cnc milling machine and lathe. David
| By John (67.180.167.118) on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 12:51 pm: |
sdcvcc: where are you located?
| By John S. (66.143.52.1) on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 10:30 pm: |
I agree with you Richard. I can do stuff with a brush that simply cannot be done with vinyl. I have in the past seen Goldleaf signs that had been around since the '30's. Not anymore though, most businesses don't last near as long as they did in the past. Ill concieved plans, trying to get too big too fast, or trying to create the illusion of same...idiots at the wheel , you name it. As far as my end of business, there just wasn't enough specialty work around to keep you going. The old "bread and butter" work went to vinyl because most people always wait to the last minute to decide what they want, and because of that they always need it yesterday. On top of that they want it as cheap as they can get it to boot. They will say that they want good work that will last, but the reality is they want it as cheap as they can get it and they will worry about how long it lasts later.
Skilled people who care about the products they produce, with the intent to stand behind them cannot compete with that crap.
| By Canada76civic (Canada76civic) (68.146.192.75) on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 07:23 pm: |
Sorry, I mean for John S. in reply! Not to Lazy. Gotta go eat something before my brain goes drained...long day today, lol!
| By Canada76civic (Canada76civic) (68.146.192.75) on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 07:20 pm: |
Lazy, What you said about "dinosaurs" is true....sad BUT True! In my trade, I was actually the LAST generation in my autobody course to learn how to do lead smotering on metal bodies - that process had been used since many decades...until it stopped and become obslete (about 20 years ago). My teacher taught me that he learned before he become a teacher for autobody training.
I still have that skills and I once did on my old car. Great and clean, solid without one bit of bondo! One negative point...lead is heavier than bondo
I also did leather stuff, now a fading art as I'm seeing these days now. It's the new technology that changes and it's getting faster ahead!
| By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.190.188) on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 06:44 pm: |
I don't know.. a good machinist can be a godsend.. likewise, I do hand pinstriping and I'll be damned if anyone can make a decal with a vinyl cutter that holds a candle to a brush and paint.
-Richard
| By lazy (139.130.237.102) on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 05:32 pm: |
It sounds like lilbucu may be confusing hubs with knuckles/uprights.
Meanwhile... that pic of the propellor.. i'm guessing that bit chews out the rough form and then another bit (or series of bits) is put in to get a smoother finish? I have seen an episode of American Chopper where they filmed a fire department themed wheel getting milled... it's an interesting thing to watch
| By John S. (66.143.52.1) on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 04:45 pm: |
You like that? Those machines have turned REAL machinists into dinosaurs, just like computer driven vinyl cutters have made actual Signwriters like me obsolete too. To be honest the new cad tech can produce more in quantity, more accurately and consistantly, and much more sophisticated in design to greater tolerance than all but the true "Artists" of the former machining world. Unfortunately at the cost of making hand work a slowly dying art.
My suggestion to any of you younger guys who have the aptitude and the drive learn how to run those cad machines in the daytime, go to school to learn how to run the older tech i.e. Bridgeport etc at night for your own enjoyment. Then start watching for older equipment as it changes hands,(usually because some company is updateing, or a Dinosaur is retiring, or died), and snap it up for your own use. You will be amazed at how cheap you can get some of that stuff, and not only that , at how much you can do with it...if you know how to use it.
| By Canada76civic (Canada76civic) (68.146.192.75) on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 06:05 am: |
Ah, now I see! Well, if that's what the machine can do...sdcvcc, go ahead make what 1G/2G guys needs. I agree that we could use good customized hubs like what Lazy asked:
Custom hubs for a rear disc conversion that uses stock 1200 bearings, 1200 inner seal & 2g+ outer seal
And...what lilbucu suggested:
some camber plates. hubs would be cool too, and while you are at it, make the strut opening on the front hubs bigger (like 46mm instead of the puny 42 so we can run like a 1g CRX strut).
Let us know with your updates, thanks!
| By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.190.188) on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 02:14 am: |
Man I wish there was an edit function.. try this again.. here's the two pics..
a prop being milled
level of detail on billet wheels
-Richard
| By Chaffneue (Chaffneue) (66.183.190.188) on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 02:08 am: |
Yeah, it's one of the many tools that boyd coddington's factory uses, but Boyd uses what's called a Vertical machining center. basically it can do circular stuff (lathe work) as well as milling (surface work). A milling machine is an incredibly intricate device that can make very precise surface cuts and drills for balanced and high precision apparatus.. you can take a hunk of steel and make it into a very complex shape by repeating many passes of the tool over the surface.
Milling machines come in many varieties, but CNC (somputer controlled) milling machines can do repeated cuts to incredibly tight specifications and can reproduce incredibly complex shapes using a mathematical model programmed by the machinist.
basically a CNC milling machine can reproduce any shape, but most of the turning type operations are still done by lathe and that's where a machining center comes in. the machinist now has access to rotary turning (on a lathe chuck; mounted vertically) as well as milling (while on the same lathe chuck) for the surface in between. billet (one piece with no seams) parts such as wheels are made using wheel blanks (blanks are used mostly to increase productivity of the machining equipment) and turned down and cut using the machining center.
-Richard
| By Canada76civic (Canada76civic) (68.146.192.75) on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 08:57 pm: |
Jacob, when you explain what this machine is like. I get the impression that it sounds like it can make almost any shaped metal out of one hulk of steel . Is that something like what Boyd (the famous guy who makes his wheels) do with his designs on wheels from that machine? I've seen his show about how he created his wheels. Is that what you were talking about?
| By sdcvcc (68.101.197.93) on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 05:53 pm: |
I do not as of yet. I will be trained by the makers of the machines. Also have some neighboring businesses that will assist. I myself have been working with computers for 12 years or so, and I know that a Mac is not the same as programming a milling/cnc.
So far, hubs and camber plates sound feasable.
| By John (67.180.167.118) on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 12:09 pm: |
sdcvcc,
Do you know how to program these machines?
| By Jacob (65.113.241.30) on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 08:31 am: |
OK, 3-axis CNC machine (congratulations BTW, that rocks). Are you familiar with knee-mill (often just called a milling machine)? If you have some idea what knee-mill is, a 3-axis CNC machine is often times just a knee-mill that has all three directions of travel (x,y,z) controlled by computer directed stepper-motors (electric motors that are directed by the computer).
There are things called "machining centers" as well (quite common). These don't look so much like a "knee-mill", but they still have the same basic three computer controlled directions of travel. Machining centers often times have guarding all around them and can basically be closed off while in operation. Typically machining centers also have the ability to run "flood cooling" during operation. This is a nozzle that just pours lubricant/cutting fluid onto the part during machining. This decreases production time and increases tool life.
There are also 4-axis and 5-axis CNC machines and CNC controlled lathes. The 4-5 axis machines have taken the basic three directions of the 3-axis and added the ability to rotate the part as it is being machined.
| By Canada76civic (Canada76civic) (68.146.192.75) on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 06:03 pm: |
sdcvcc, could you explain what's a 3 axis CNC machine is? I've never heard of that one before. Sorry for asking a dumb question, lol! Thanks...
| By lilbucu (24.16.243.28) on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 02:39 pm: |
i would like to see some camber plates. hubs would be cool too, and while you are at it, make the strut opening on the front hubs bigger (like 46mm instead of the puny 42 so we can run like a 1g CRX strut).
| By John S. (68.93.3.110) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 03:43 pm: |
Hey Justin,
Though I haven't finished this setup for my '78 CVCC yet I am going to use the origional grease cap from the disc-brake hub, cut the center out of it and braze on a deeper(taller) center to it, then build up the outer ring with PC-7 epoxy and sand it to fit snug in the machined hub. How is that for being anal retentive?
| By Justin (24.83.36.37) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 09:09 am: |
I've redesigned the outer seal problem.. by machining the hub a little deeper and then making a "washer" that fits to cover the the bearings, also I made up a spacer between the outer 1200 bearing and the inner original. I've had the set-up for over 5 years and no problems
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 07:56 am: |
I was actually about to take a more in-depth look at the hub-style rotors used on 83-87 preludes. They use the same bearings as the 2g civics and require the exact same machine work to be done to the stub axle except offset a little less. If Justin's setup used a real outer seal then I'd go that route too, but I'm anal. My custom hub idea was basically Justin's setup but with an outer seal, easily replacable bearings and no useless centre bearing. It may not seem like a lot to you, but to me the benefits justify the extra cost.
| By John S. (66.136.149.110) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 07:16 am: |
I think for the 1st Gens it is hard to beat the system Justin and a few others are already using...discussed several times before, and although it requires some machining it is possible to build from used parts(recycling) and it is all Honda. The only way to improve on it would be with lighter parts i.e. hard alloy aluminium...unsprung weight, think unsprung weight. So if you are going to reinvent some thing I would suggest you always think in that direction.
| By Don (199.2.139.225) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 06:30 am: |
Lemke has a rear disks conversion on his Gt5 civic using a mid 80s prelude hub and disk. Maybe somebody sould try bolting on that before reinventing the wheel?
| By lazy (165.228.57.19) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 12:02 am: |
lol Jarcaf
sdcvcc: if the hubs get the green light I'd love a set for myself and would really appreciate an email to discuss options/ideas.
| By Jarcaf (Jarcaf) (207.55.238.216) on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 11:33 pm: |
it's back, sorry, i was really scared and lonely
| By Jarcaf (Jarcaf) (207.55.238.216) on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 11:31 pm: |
is it just me or is the bottom 9/10ths of the forum missing, along w/ the new thread button?
| By sdcvcc (68.101.197.93) on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 09:47 pm: |
I need to do that conversion, so I think that could be a possibility. Started a list. Anymore?
| By lazy (139.130.237.102) on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 08:26 pm: |
Custom hubs for a rear disc conversion that uses stock 1200 bearings, 1200 inner seal & 2g+ outer seal .. it's something I've been wondering about for a while.
| By sdcvcc (68.101.197.93) on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 06:48 pm: |
We will be getting a 3 axis CNC machine at my place of employment within a month. I will be running the producton on it. My boss is fairly generous and I think I could talk him into letting me design up and cut some smaller parts on it in my spare and weekend time. Any ideas?
| Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only Administer Page |