More Koni news
The "new" inserts from Koni had valves that had a protective coating ...over the years the coating had turned to glue causing the valves to stick.
Most parts for that style shock are NLA. Bruce did a great job, Rebound increased about 50% Bump about 20% still not quite right for a 400 Lb spring but he said its ALLOT better than using the items as is.
Lowered cars Note:
OLD KONI KILLER #1 You must make a positive stop that prevents the suspension from bottoming fully. If it does the parts that do the rebound adjustment smash into each other and the strut is a throw away. Bruce said the rubber stops are not enough. Steel on steel is the only way.

By Don (216.104.65.180) on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 05:27 am:

Triming the bushing may not be a good Idea
at least on the gen 1 it relys on that bushing thinkness to maintain full range of motion (allready compromised by lowering) if you would trim it it would lock the suspention up even more.

By Colza (Colza) (219.88.32.108) on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 11:17 pm:

This is the CityTurbo thread with all the pics of the setup. Its still very much experimental although it passed a warrant of fitness so it has the potential to be kept on the car if i like it. Something in the rear has settled down a little and the rear is now about 8mm lower than the front. I can put a spacer in between the keeper and the main spring if i need to raise the back a little.

By Colza (Colza) (219.88.32.108) on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 11:04 pm:

I give up on posting pics on this site!

Here they are, thankfully hosted at CityTurbo.com =P

Ride_height: Attempting to show ride height. Doesnt work so well, ill get a better pic.

Wheel: The wheel and its new location!

By Colza (219.88.32.108) on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 10:43 pm:

By Colza (Colza) (219.88.32.108) on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 10:37 pm:

That pic is strange. I swear the toe looks right as far as i can see, just that pic makes it look like i have 4 wheel steering!

Car has never been hit, entire thing is dead straight including the bumper brackets!!!

There have been a few changes since those pics were taken. The distance from the bottom of the sills to the ground is within about 2mm on all 4 corners. The passenger side is a little higher than the drivers side at the rear because the keeper spring isnt sitting quite flat as it had less material removed than the drivers side. I will fix that but havent had time just yet.

Ill try and get a pic of what i was trying to explain about the wheel shifting backwards...

By paul (24.81.133.253) on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 10:33 pm:

Jarcaf just trim the forward bushing of the radius arm, bout .5 inches. Then put what you just cut back on the other side of the upright.

By John S. (66.143.32.253) on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 07:10 pm:

Say Colza,
I just took a good look at all the pics of your car on the Turbo website, and I've got to believe you have a really bad rear tow-out problem. How much was caused by the lowering is hard to say, as you've changed almost everything back there. I would start by having the rear toe in set to factory specs, or even a little more if you have that much adjustment, and see where that puts you.
One other question, has that car been hit in the rear? If so somebody may have done a halfass job of getting the frame pulled right...really no way to tell though till you set the rear toe...then you can measure your diagonals and tell if there is anything going on in that area.
You are definitely dragging your rear end around though,and the passenger side is worse than the drivers side. In any case that will eat your rear tires in short order. Lets hope it is all within adjustment range.

By Jarcaf (Jarcaf) (207.55.238.216) on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 04:04 pm:

Paul, I don't understand what mean in cutting and relocating. Can you explain further? I'm also assuming the suspension design is unchanged between 1st and 2nd gens too, which i'm not positive about...

By Don (63.135.203.227) on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 05:28 am:

I dont think he is... camber can be controlled with the plates but that wont move the wheel backward in the arch, but maybe he didn't "splain" it right

By paul (24.81.133.253) on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 10:16 pm:

I think Colza is thinking about camber not caster.
I can only think of custom camber plates at the top of the strut.

BTW an easier method for the caster change would be to cut the front bushing in half and put it on the other side of the knuckle/ upright.

By Jarcaf (Jarcaf) (207.55.238.216) on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 12:53 pm:

oh yeah. If it's only being done for cosmetics, i'd leave all the suspension parts alone and just work on the fenders.

By Don (63.135.203.56) on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 10:53 am:

That would increase caster.... its not a bad thing if its not done in execess

By Jarcaf (Jarcaf) (207.55.238.216) on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 10:34 am:

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You could grind away at the sway bar where that washer mounts before the bushings, thus moving the control arm a little bit forward. You'd just grind away at the outsides until it was small enough to slide into the washer/bushings. That spot is marked w/ the *'s. I can't say i'd recommend it, and have never tried it but it's just an idea.

By Don (63.135.203.56) on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 07:49 am:

Update after testing with the new valving the service center found a major defect in one of the New konis. It will be fixed under warranty free but they are having a hard time finding a new part as the repair parts went obsolete long ago. New in box might not mean usable after setting for years. Lucky though they are trying to stand behind the product.

Colza I never noticed..but there is a fix for any thing if you want to spend time and $$$$$$

By Colza (Colza) (210.54.193.166) on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 03:03 am:

Is there any easy way to compensate for the wheel moving backward in the arch as you go lower? Im not sure how it affects suspension geometry, im thinking more from a cosmetic point of view...

By Hugh Johnson (Oneson1) (144.138.198.199) on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 11:06 pm:

Hooray Don!! the sooner we get rid of bars and tune spring/damper combo's the better. why take a 4 wheel independent system and loose the independence with a 20mm steel bar. Tuning low speed damper valving and using variable rate spring packages will offer more control per wheel than using sway/roll bars. In general terms try over damping slightly in bump but not droop (double acting dampers only)

hugh

By Don (63.135.203.97) on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 04:57 pm:

Early VW A1s lift the inside rear more often because they have a beam axle not IRS in the rear. A Civic with a big rear bar will do the same if the spring rates get too soft because the sway bar ties the two wheels together making in act similar to a beam axle. Like Hugh said its faster to have a Civic that keeps all wheels on the ground for the most part.

By John Le (Lilbucu) (24.19.198.100) on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 04:26 pm:

and i think most VW also lift thier inside rear wheels when cornering hard. i think it mostly has to do with the fact that our cars our very light in the back with short wheel bases(front to back).

By John Le (Lilbucu) (24.19.198.100) on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 04:24 pm:

impracticle on a non race car. i agree that you can compansate no sway bars with stiffer srpings, but after a certain rate, you springs will be too stiff for anything but the track. there is a nice balnce with springs that can be run on the street in conjunction with sway bars.

most of us on here have street cars, and plus, lifting the inside rear wheel just looks plain cool.

By Don (199.2.139.208) on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 04:18 pm:

Even if he had a big sway bar in the rear, the fact that the car is lifting the rear inside tire high shows the need to stiffen up the front, but your right sway bars can cause lift. The trend now is to not use any bars at all because of this fact. Cars set up this way can be found in World challenge and also allot of sports racers are loosing thier sway bars at a very fast rate.

By John Le (Lilbucu) (24.19.198.100) on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 04:10 pm:

or he might just have a really big rear sway bar.

By Don (63.135.203.97) on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 07:02 am:

If your rear tire gets off the ground on street tires then you are using WAY too soft a spring.
It works like a fulcrum if the rear comes up then the front is too soft. If you spend a little $ on some springs you might be suprised

By Hugh Johnson (Oneson1) (144.138.198.215) on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 05:42 am:

Oh yes you can get the inside rear well off the ground on road tyres ... you guys are just not trying hard enough!!! 1200 with sports inserts and 1500 springs at an Australian National University car club circuit sprint. I ended up having a personal comp with a guy with full rally suspension about who could lift a wheel higher....he won.... and I went faster..... might be a message there......hmmmmm....

By Jarcaf (Jarcaf) (207.55.238.216) on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 04:02 pm:

true true

By Don (199.2.139.150) on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 03:59 pm:

With street tires you wont stick well enough to get the wheels off the ground.

By Don (199.2.139.235) on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 03:53 pm:

You must have got a new guy or something Lee is the head of Koni NA tech and he gives an entirely different version than what you have. Thats why I had them Dyno test the new inserts and they were not up to the task.

By Jarcaf (Jarcaf) (207.55.238.216) on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 03:51 pm:

Just to be clear, this is more applicable to racing application, correct? I'm sure some of it may apply if you're an "enthusiastic" driver, but I don't see myself in situations w/ my inside being 4ft off the ground just driving down a back-highway.

By Ted (63.224.195.169) on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:43 am:

Don,
When I spoke with Gordon Benson at Koni North Ameria about the spring rates for the KONI 86 Series wet inserts, he said "The full soft position is what is recommended for a stock spring rate but these have a very large range of adjustment to them. Though you are running spring rates 2.5-3.5 times firmer than stock, the strut should be working all right with this setup as long as you're not on the bumpstop all the time."

I then asked if I can use a heavier shock oil to solve my "bounce" problem and he said "Yes BUT you will also increase the compression (bump) forces as well. You can easily make this too firm and the car will skid too much going into a turn.

I still have the bounce problem, so I may just need to live with it, or use softer spring rates.
Our civics have a short wheelbase, so some bounce is going to happen.

By Don (63.135.203.21) on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 06:56 pm:

.125 bumpsteer not 1.25 still bad though

By Don (63.135.203.21) on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 06:43 pm:

Ok for all those who want to slam there civic......
Last year two wheels in the air were far to common..the 4ft plus one scared me just a bit. So there was only one choice in my mind, down to lower the CG.
Problem # 1 roll centers, as the civic drops the roll center drops at a much faster rate. Low roll centers have less roll resistance requiring even stiffer sway bars and springs. Problem 2# Bump steer/ Roll steer... The suspension at 2" lower than stock has about 1.25" toe in per side as it compresses. Both can be corrected but if rules limit mods or your lazy .. its quite possible to ruin even the mediocre handling of a gen 1 by dropping the suspension "as is".
Another bit of info the NOS konis sold by classic garage are for street spring rates only! stock + 20% Max per shock dyno testing today!
I got off the phone with an authorized Koni service center. Basically to handle 300-400 rate springs everything including the piston and the shaft must be replaced by custom made parts $$$$$ made at koni $$$$.
They can improve the problem by revalving but it wont eliminate it completely without replacing alot of parts. The short Bilstein VW inserts for sport use are looking better for those who only drop there Civics an inch or less. PS Mine are on e-bay right now. As my Civ ended up droped more than that.